Hardened Armor - Drones & Spirits Options

[yesferatu]

Do drones and spirits have hardened armor by default?
Are all drones considered "vehicles"?

Vehicle Armor
Vehicle armor functions just like character armor, and is used for the vehicle’s damage resistance tests. Vehicle armor is the same rating
against both ballistic and impact attacks. Since vehicle armor is often much higher than ordinary character armor, gamemasters should remember to use the trade-in rule for large dice pools (4 dice for 1 hit, see Buying Hits, p. 62). If an attack’s modified DV does not exceed a vehicle’s modified
Armor rating, then the attack automatically fails.

Hardened Armor
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.

Immunity
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage. Additionally, this “armor rating” is added to the damage resistance test as normal armor.

Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.

[Draco18s]

Vehicle armor is NOT hardened and should not be confused as such.

The reason it is mechanically identical is that vehicles lack a stun track. You can throw gel rounds at a vehicle all day long, beat it's armor 90% of the time, and still do jack diddly squat.

[HunterHerne]

Vehicle armor is NOT hardened and should not be confused as such.

The reason it is mechanically identical is that vehicles lack a stun track. You can throw gel rounds at a vehicle all day long, beat it's armor 90% of the time, and still do jack diddly squat.

However, there is a slight problem with that. It may be functionally identical because vehicles lack a stun track, but it is entirely identicle, without the actually ability, if even a low force Spirit possesses the vehicle.

[Draco18s]

if even a low force Spirit possesses the vehicle.

That's a different question entirely.

[KarmaInferno]

Vehicle armor is NOT hardened and should not be confused as such.

The reason it is mechanically identical is that vehicles lack a stun track. You can throw gel rounds at a vehicle all day long, beat it's armor 90% of the time, and still do jack diddly squat.

I know you've said this before, and I've said it before, but since you said it again I'll say it again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Vehicles being immune to weapon DVs lower than their armor, and them being immune to stun, are two separate rules. Assuming that one is what causes the other is a reasonable extrapolation, but it is not actually stated.




-k

[Stalag]

and them being immune to stun, are two separate rules.

"The yakuza are still after us! Why are we stopped?!?"
"The car fell unconscious after that last hit"

Sorry - that really has nothing to do with what you just said... that just popped into my head with the thought of vehicles and stun damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[yesferatu]

I don't think any of the above posts really address my concern, would you guys mind taking another pass?

1. The vehicle armor section in the core says, "If an attack’s modified DV does not exceed a vehicle’s modified Armor rating, then the attack automatically fails." That's the same mechanics as "hardened armor". Are drones all considered vehicles?
Does a Steel Lynx get the same armor benefit as a say...a step van or a patrol car?

2. The spirit combat section of the core (p.186) says, "Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 295), giving them Armor equal
to twice their Force against all attacks." So they do have both twice their magic rating in armor and hardened armor?
Does a force 10 spirit have 20 hardened armor? I thought double their magic rating in armor was bad enough.
It's not that hard to summon a force 10 spirit. I really don't know how you'd even begin to damage it.
Doesn't that completely break spirit combat?

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, drones are vehicles. Yes, attacks fail against vehicle armor if they don't beat armor; this resembles, but is not, Hardened Armor.

It should be hard to summon Force 10; if it's not, fix the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ITNW is Armor 2*Magic "treated as hardened" and adds to Damage Resistance.

[yesferatu]

Thanks Yerameyahu.
I think the first few times I read the drone and spirit rules, I just went off the rules on the main page, not the sneaky "oh, and this hugely important rule we barely mention" page referral.

I don't think it's all that hard to summon a big spirit.
It's just overcasting. You roll a bunch of dice, the spirit roles 10 dice max...the drain is just whatever the spirit gets...sometimes nothing in physical damage. I suppose it could technically kill you.

[Yerameyahu]

Most people also give it Edge.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Most people also give it Edge.

I know we do... Gods do not serve Sheep... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

I know we do... Gods do not serve Sheep... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Agreed. Fortunitely, I have avoided this, so far, since none of my Magician players have any skill in the conjuration group.

[pbangarth]

2. The spirit combat section of the core (p.186) says, "Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 295), giving them Armor equal
to twice their Force against all attacks." So they do have both twice their magic rating in armor and hardened armor?
Does a force 10 spirit have 20 hardened armor? I thought double their magic rating in armor was bad enough.
It's not that hard to summon a force 10 spirit. I really don't know how you'd even begin to damage it.
Doesn't that completely break spirit combat?

A Force 10 spirit has 20 armor, total, which is considered hardened. So, if the DV of the weapon (modified appropriately by things like net hits but not by things like burst mods) doesn't exceed 20 - AP, then it doesn't do any damage at all. If the spirit happens to be wearing armor, then that worn armor - AP is added into the damage resistance along with the 20 of the spirit itself, but is not considered in the ItNW calculation.

Note: Some people do not apply the AP to both the ItNW and to worn armor when calculating damage resistance.

[Yerameyahu]

And the spirit shouldn't be wearing armor anyway, ugh.

[Minimax le Rouge]

spirit armor and physical armor is like wearing multiple armor : it doesn't stack.
A Force 10 spirit possessing a metahumain wearing a 18/14 armor will push is armor to 20/20 hardoned, and that's all for me.

[Yerameyahu]

That doesn't make sense, but I'm fine with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Screw spirits, especially if they wear things.

[pbangarth]

spirit armor and physical armor is like wearing multiple armor : it doesn't stack.
A Force 10 spirit possessing a metahumain wearing a 18/14 armor will push is armor to 20/20 hardoned, and that's all for me.

That doesn't make sense, but I'm fine with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Screw spirits, especially if they wear things.

ItNW is not material in any way shape or form. It is an intrinsic resistance of the critter to damage of a specific type, is merely "treated as 'hardened' protection" as described under Hardened Armor on page 295 SR4A (which expands on Armor, page 293), and as such does not fall under the rules governing stacking of external, worn armor. Neither does armor in cyberlimbs, dermal plating (natural or otherwise) or the aura of an Armor spell.

So that Force 10 spirit possessing a metahuman with 18/14 armor would have hardened protection of 20/20 which, if overcome, would allow the possessed being to use 38/34 points of armor to resist damage. This could be part of the reason why the game has so many restrictions on magic (many of which are ignored or misunderstood, leading to the belief that magic in SR is overpowered and must be attacked from all directions till it curls up in a little ball and whimpers).

[Yerameyahu]

Like I said. I'm fine with the error because screw spirits, esp. possession.

[Draco18s]

And it'd be stun, unless the DV was greater than 38.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And it'd be stun, unless the DV was greater than 38.

Which is irrelvant, as a spirit is still disrupted if its Track is filled, regardless of whether it is a Stun track or Physical track.

[yesferatu]

So how does armor piercing work with spirits?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So how does armor piercing work with spirits?

Same way it does with anything else. Take the Spirit's ITNW, apply the AP, if your DV is greater than their remaining modified ITNW, then they soak to reduce damage. If their damage track becomes full, they disrupt. Pretty simple really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Example:
Force 6 Spirit (ITNW of 12)
Sniper Rifle with DV 7, AP -3 using APDS (AP now -7).
One Net hit on Spirit.
Apply AP to ITNW (12-7=5).
Check if DV is > Remaining ITNW (8>5).
Spirit Soaks Damage with Body + 5 (Remaining ITNW); DV is 8
Spirit takes damage (or not, depending upon Soak).

[Neraph]

I know we do... Gods do not serve Sheep... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Gods would not be F10. You can still realistically summon a F10 spirit that uses Edge by using Edge yourself (on Summoning and Drain Tests). F16+ would be more in line with gods, but they'd be more like Asgardian deities as opposed to (some) Hindu or other pantheons.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Gods would not be F10. You can still realistically summon a F10 spirit that uses Edge by using Edge yourself (on Summoning and Drain Tests). F16+ would be more in line with gods, but they'd be more like Asgardian deities as opposed to (some) Hindu or other pantheons.

Personal Opinions... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Force 10 is God-like enough so as to not really matter, even if they are not as powerful a god as Force 16+ would be....

[Neraph]

Personal Opinions... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Force 10 is God-like enough so as to not really matter, even if they are not as powerful a god as Force 16+ would be....

It depends on how watered-down your definition of god is. And I guess how strong your tables normally run...