[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It depends on how watered-down your definition of god is. And I guess how strong your tables normally run...

True... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Neraph]

Two easy examples: I know how to deal with the 387 armor 400 BP character (a few different ways) and I know how to mitigate the Magic 14 Supermage at chargen.

Those freaking Stealth + Longarm snipers give me more problems...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Two easy examples: I know how to deal with the 387 armor 400 BP character (a few different ways) and I know how to mitigate the Magic 14 Supermage at chargen.

Those freaking Stealth + Longarm snipers give me more problems...

Heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The first is easy; Just say No. The Second is also easy; Just say No. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Snipers are ALWAYS a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Personal Opinions... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Force 10 is God-like enough so as to not really matter, even if they are not as powerful a god as Force 16+ would be....

*shrug* Force 10 spirits are powerful, but easily dealt with without the necessity of making them cheese the player character. You can handle a lot of it through roleplay as well: a high force spirit is more likely to be creative in interpreting orders, forcing the summoner to burn through services more quickly. And, unless you roll like I do (lot's of critical failures on summoning resistance rolls) those high force spirits won't have many services to begin with.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*shrug* Force 10 spirits are powerful, but easily dealt with without the necessity of making them cheese the player character. You can handle a lot of it through roleplay as well: a high force spirit is more likely to be creative in interpreting orders, forcing the summoner to burn through services more quickly. And, unless you roll like I do (lot's of critical failures on summoning resistance rolls) those high force spirits won't have many services to begin with.

All very true. However, No one at our table has ever been able to actually summon a Force 10 Spirit. I am okay with that. We have seen Force 5 Spirits dealing 20 Damage on the Summoner (with no Services gained). The Force 7 was about as brutal, with 18 Damage (and 1 Service Gained). Hell, for a long time, the character I use to play (Necromancer) could not summon a Water Spirit (Viscera Spirit) above Force 3, because every time I did, it beat the crap out of me and I gained no services. Ironically, that was the only spirit type I ever had that issue with (I routinely summoned Force 5 and 6 Spirits of the other types). Not sure why. No one has ever attempted to summon that Force 10 Spirit. Works for us.

[Cain]

All very true. However, No one at our table has ever been able to actually summon a Force 10 Spirit. I am okay with that. We have seen Force 5 Spirits dealing 20 Damage on the Summoner (with no Services gained). The Force 7 was about as brutal, with 18 Damage (and 1 Service Gained). Hell, for a long time, the character I use to play (Necromancer) could not summon a Water Spirit (Viscera Spirit) above Force 3, because every time I did, it beat the crap out of me and I gained no services. Ironically, that was the only spirit type I ever had that issue with (I routinely summoned Force 5 and 6 Spirits of the other types). Not sure why. No one has ever attempted to summon that Force 10 Spirit. Works for us.

You also play a different game than the rest of us. 100+ karma and characters as weak as you describe? It's ok if you guys like it, but don't think that because you don't optimize, it's not powerful.

[Yerameyahu]

Ugh, how can you have a spirit of viscera.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ugh, how can you have a spirit of viscera.

Lets see if I can remember the Classifications...

Combat: Death Spirits – The Reapers of the Damned (Guardian)
Detection: Ghosts - Ancestor Spirits (Guidance)
Health: LifeBlood - Viscera Spirits (Water)
Illusion: Ghosts - Poltergeist Spirits (Air)
Manipulation: Specter - Malevolent Spirits (Man)

Yes, it was a very disturbing imagry. And no, the Viscera Spirits are not the Blood Spirits of a Toxic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You also play a different game than the rest of us. 100+ karma and characters as weak as you describe? It's ok if you guys like it, but don't think that because you don't optimize, it's not powerful.

The characters are not weak, though. I would really like for you to please tell me how they are Weak compared to the world actually depicted in the books... I bet that you can't.

You just see them that way because you prefer an over the top powerful game. Please at least acknowledge that your version is so far above the guidelines of the books that we are likely not talking about the same game in the end.

[KarmaInferno]

I have to agree somewhat.

The game indicates that pretty much anything above rating 5 is damn rare in the SR universe, relegated to only the elite.

The rules mechanics don't actually reflect this, though - a standard 400 BP character is supposed to be the starting point, a runner just making his way out into the mean world of the Shadows. But it's fairly easy to build a character with 400 BP that matches or exceeds the capabilities of some of the most powerful NPCs depicted in the setting.



-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have to agree somewhat.

The game indicates that pretty much anything above rating 5 is damn rare in the SR universe, relegated to only the elite.

The rules mechanics don't actually reflect this, though - a standard 400 BP character is supposed to be the starting point, a runner just making his way out into the mean world of the Shadows. But it's fairly easy to build a character with 400 BP that matches or exceeds the capabilities of some of the most powerful NPCs depicted in the setting.

-k

It is indeed easy to do so. There is no real reason why you should though.
Just saying.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

There is no real reason why you should though.

Survival isn't a reason? What strange world do I exist in then?

[Draco18s]

There is no real reason why you should though.

Wait, what?
How is not-being "all you can be" a good thing?

[Yerameyahu]

Survival is not properly the primary focus of a tabletop RPG character. It depends on how that fits the game, group, story, etc.

[Draco18s]

Survival is not properly the primary focus of a tabletop RPG character. It depends on how that fits the game, group, story, etc.

No, but usefulness is. If you have a character that's only half as useful as another character, what was the point?

[KarmaInferno]

If the rest of the team, and the GM, are operating with dials set to 5, bringing in a character with dials set to 10 might be a bit disruptive to the campaign.

It's all about fitting into the particular campaign you're playing.

For example, you can build a Missions character with dice pools in the 24+ range if you want to. But most folks seem to have pools in the 12 to 16 range for primary tasks, and there seems to be a gentleman's agreement at most tables not to push the cheese TOO far.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't say anything about that, Draco18s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But the same point indeed applies: it depends on fit. 'Doing everything better' is not properly the *primary* focus of a tabletop RPG character.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, but usefulness is. If you have a character that's only half as useful as another character, what was the point?

Define Half as Useful.
Whether you have 24+ Dice to Shoot someone or 14 Dice to shoot someone. They are just as dead. You cannot be MORE dead.

And Yerameyahu and KarmaInferno have said it better than I can, as usual, so *shrug*

[Draco18s]

Define Half as Useful.
Whether you have 24+ Dice to Shoot someone or 14 Dice to shoot someone. They are just as dead. You cannot be MORE dead.

And Yerameyahu and KarmaInferno have said it better than I can, as usual, so *shrug*

Ah, but the 24 dice person can fire More Bullets at More Stuff and with Bigger Guns.

Also, the principle applies to all tasks, not just bullets.

Good, you built a summoner that can summon F3 spirits without a problem, but F4 starts getting risky.

I can summon F6 all day every day. How are you useful?

[KarmaInferno]

Not everyone plays with the throttle wide open, dude.

And nobody said anything about playing characters that are less powerful than the other characters in the particular campaign they are in.

There are, however, campaigns that are higher or lower powered than others. If you want the group to have fun, it is best to match your characters to the average power level of the others. Otherwise you either will be a drag on the rest of the group or dominate the group, neither of which is very fun for the other guys.



-k

[Paul]

If you want the group to have fun, it is best to match your characters to the average power level of the others. Otherwise you either will be a drag on the rest of the group or dominate the group, neither of which is very fun for the other guys.

Man I can't say this enough. I can't tell you how many times I've described a game and had someone show up at the table with a character that specifically built to be a pain in the ass. Whether setting incompatible, or crunch incompatible it's annoying and rude.

It's the Wil Wheaton rule: Don't be a Dick!

[Draco18s]

Not everyone plays with the throttle wide open, dude.

I didn't say it wasn't true, I asked why.

If the scale is "1-6" why isn't everyone at 6?

Just because the rules allow for a 1-20 as a possible range doesn't mean anything, what I'm saying is, regardless of what the range for a given campaign is why do people play things that aren't at the top end of that range? What's the benefit?

[Yerameyahu]

Does that happen? And if so, what part of that is simply a function of specialization-vs.-generalization?

I'd guess that any residual variation is based on playing a role that doesn't call for that (crazy thought). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Chimera]

There are many reasons why players might not dial it up to 6. A few come to mind.

1. First time players..Not really sure what they are doing.
2. A player might not want to be a specialist, but more of a generalist between two roles.
3. The GM has made some house rules (e.g. dice pools cannot be more than twice of the linked, augmented attribute).
4. A casual game hosted once a month with players going in and out.
5. A role-play emphasized game with combat/active skill use De-emphasized.



My answer to "Where's the Benefit" is because I've realized I will never "win" at Shadowrun so I may as well get the most fun out of playing my character as I wish. And sometimes that involves using a whiffle bat as a primary weapon.

[Draco18s]

1. First time players..Not really sure what they are doing.

Unintentional sub-optimality is not intentional choice.

2. A player might not want to be a specialist, but more of a generalist between two roles.

Generalists have this habit of taking two roles and trying to be "ok" at them when both of those roles are filled by specialists in the party already. I've never seen a generalist in SR that worked well. I.e. they end up being half of two different characters and never get to shine.

Except one, and it was mine, and only because I'd been trying for a specific concept and lucked out that there was no dedicated hacker (and I still had to Mr. Lucky those roles when it came up). So my secondary role ended up being useful (my primary role was still specialized as far as I could with my limited BP budget). Even so, I ended up with several skills or abilities that never once entered play and thus ended up being more of a liability than an asset (whereas if I'd specialized more, I'd have performed better).

3. The GM has made some house rules (e.g. dice pools cannot be more than twice of the linked, augmented attribute).

So, in other words, dialed up as high as it can go, and thus not a counterexample. (You altered what enforces the intended range, but not countered the point of playing below the range cap).

4. A casual game hosted once a month with players going in and out.

This is more a factor of "I need a character in 10 minutes" rather than any intentional decision on part of the player.

5. A role-play emphasized game with combat/active skill use De-emphasized.

As if low dice pool = role playing. Haven't we been over this?