[X] My Assistant

[Neraph]

That makes me want to hand-carve a block of wood into a "real gun" with my pocket knife at boy scout camp.

Not that I go to BSA camp any more. Or whittle. Or want to spend that much effort.

Already been done.

[Draco18s]

Already been done.

I said with a pocket knife. Dude clearly had that thing machined.

[CanRay]

Believe me, those ARE BB-guns. Airsoft guns more precisely. They do cost $250 or something thereabouts, though. There's also that $500 Mosin-Nagant rifle made of aluminium, with a wooden stock and real scope. It shoots plastic BBs too.

Those AKs were actually BB guns, but could easily be converted to full on bullet-firing AKs with a few part swaps.

-k

Yeah, well, I'm going to wait and see if more legitimate info comes along than from the RCMP or heavily biased newspapers... Not that there is a firearms friendly newspaper (or any other media) in Canada, I believe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

At this point, it could be true, it could be false. And, yeah, this is a prime example of loopholes in the system that might be snuck around if the authorities aren't looking carefully enough. Or are, *Ahem*, encouraged to not look closely.

[Seriously Mike]

Those AKs were actually BB guns, but could easily be converted to full on bullet-firing AKs with a few part swaps.

Oh, yeah. Receiver, barrel, trigger, you'd also have to put the real internals in... What the hell were you smoking?! First off, those things were copied from Japanese models that have different dimensions than real-steel, that's one, different internal structure that disallows "a few part swaps", that's two, and are made of plastic, and that one's not relevant. Then, what Shadowrun should have taught you a long time ago, you don't believe the media as they're usually lying or talking out of their asses, or lying out of their asses to drum up the moral panic. And finally, do your legwork first. A little research and you wouldn't end up ridiculed by people who actually handled that stuff. ME.

At least it's not like the US ATF when they seized shipment of Airsoft M-4s, claiming they could be converted to a real gun. Turns out that, yes, you technically could, but only by replacing 90% of the gun except the plastic shell holding everything together, and even then it would likely shake itself apart after a few shots.

Oh, and that one was about something completely different too. Actually, the ATF threw a shit-fit over the fact that you could fit real-steel trigger mechanism to the cast zinc-alloy lower receiver of the toy (the only part of the real rifle that has a serial number stamped on it) with a liberal application of power drill, and then put it on a real-steel upper receiver to get an unregistered, untraceable rifle that could even fire once or twice before the lower receiver falls apart. If only Colt and other AR15 manufacturers weren't retarded and actually stamped the serial number on the upper receiver instead (or upper AND lower, twice), the whole brouhaha wouldn't have taken place.

[CanRay]

Seriously Mike, you handled these exact models that were in BC?

That said, I think I have put the warning that this could just be fearmongering on the Canadian Media and RCMP's part.

Hell, you should have heard the complaining and gnashing of teeth over the new Winnipeg Jet's logo. *Shakes Head*

[Dakka Dakka]

Hell, you should have heard the complaining and gnashing of teeth over the new Winnipeg Jet's logo. *Shakes Head*

Care to enlighten us Non-Canadians?

[CanRay]

The Roundel logo is supposed to be an homage to the long history and tradition Winnipeg has with the old Royal Canadian Air Force (The main training base was here for World War I and II), and was done with permission (And thanks, apparently) from the Canadian Armed Forces.

However, due to it's "Militaristic" stance, a lot of people are heavily up in arms about it, because, well, "The Military Is Evil And Kills Children" or something similar. I've even seen signs downtown going, "Who designed the new Jets logo? Satan?"

Never mind that the Canadian Armed Forces primary job is Search and Rescue, Securing the Canadian Waters, and Peacekeeper missions for the UN. Hell, Afghanistan was the first actual "Military" action Canada's had since the Korean War!

Don't understand it myself, but, then again, I'm a supporter of the Canadian Armed Forces, Veterans, and so on. So I'm not expected to, being in bed with "The Enemy" and such. Canadian Culture has always been this way. But we're edging towards the ToS, so I'll shut up now.

[Seriously Mike]

Seriously Mike, you handled these exact models that were in BC?

No, but if something is claimed to be a BB gun AK47 made out of steel and shipped from China, it's most probably either the Cyma or Boyi airsoft gun (cheaper, more common) or Real Sword airsoft gun (more expensive, more faithful to the original). Cymas use the same parts as their cheaper zinc-alloy AEGs, so my point still stands.

[KarmaInferno]

A) Thus far the Canadian authorities haven't mentioned what make and model toy weapon is mentioned. Without further information I can only go off what was reported.

B) The incident I was taking about required the toy lower receiver to be cut apart and put back together with a shim to make it wide enough to accept the trigger group and associated bits. The rest of the weapon was from AR-15 parts. It is possible the lower receiver was metal, but the pictures I saw they looked plastic.

The rest of my statement is definite, though - you could in fact make a lower receiver out of wood, since it doesn't have to actually contain any great stress or pressure. Granted, the wooden LR wouldn't last very long, but you'd likely get a few shots out of it.

The biggest stupidity is how the ATF defines a "firearm", which at the time was the lower receiver. None of the other parts of an AR-15, for example, were regulated to any great degree.

C) There's no reason to be an ass about it. Nobody was throwing insults before you posted. Chill.

I am aware of what goes into a weapon. I have a shotgun sitting not 5 feet from me and have owned several rifles and handguns in the past. My old 9mm I could take apart and put together blindfolded. Please don't assume.



-k

[Seriously Mike]

B) The incident I was taking about required the toy lower receiver to be cut apart and put back together with a shim to make it wide enough to accept the trigger group and associated bits. The rest of the weapon was from AR-15 parts. It is possible the lower receiver was metal, but the pictures I saw they looked plastic.

It so happens I followed that one - the Wei-E Tech M4s were seized and, to make them accept the trigger group, inside of the zinc alloy lower receiver had to be made a bit wider (but not by sawing and shimming, it was milled out). It might have looked plastic due to the finish, though. Some manufacturers use ungodly amount of paint and WE just so happens to be one of the sloppier ones.

As for the AKs, I just knew the only options. And knowing the downright stupid regulations of airsoft in Canada (for instance, no second-hand sales), I kinda figured out that a whole shipment of them was more likely to contain the cheaper models that would surely sell in the ordered quantity. Plus people would prefer a replica of the Russian AK (that Cyma and Boyi make) to the Chinese Type 56 (made exclusively by RealSword).

That and I'm very touchy on the subject of "toys that can be easily turned into weapons". All the designs come from Japan, where the manufacturers are obligated to make sure this is not possible. Then, Taiwanese and Chinese copy the designs, sometimes putting in minor improvements like seals that withstand higher pressure (Japan uses duster gas in their gas-powered airsoft guns, rest of the world uses propane that has higher pressure) or electronic components that improve trigger action (some companies in the West improved a home-made MOSFET mod used in electric-powered airsoft rifles and are having it installed in the guns they order from China), but structurally, it's not possible to use airsoft guns as base for real ones without major modifications that aren't really worth it.

[CanRay]

No second-hand sales is the worst you can think of? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The license to import Airsoft into Canada also allows the importer to store Weapons-Grade Nuclear Material. No, I'm not joking.

[Seriously Mike]

The license to import Airsoft into Canada also allows the importer to store Weapons-Grade Nuclear Material. No, I'm not joking.

Well, the "can't do something obvious" clause is worse than "can do something unusual because some idiot wrote the law that way" in my book. Also, it's not that hard to guess that getting a license in the first place requires you to jump a shitload of hoops while smiling at the morons leading you through.

[CanRay]

Leading? You have people leading you through a Bureaucracy? Lucky!!!

[KarmaInferno]

That and I'm very touchy on the subject of "toys that can be easily turned into weapons".

Well, here's the problem. They technically can.

But only inasmuch as it's not at all hard to create a structure that is capable of holding the bolt assembly, barrel/chamber, and ammo feed together well enough to launch a bullet. Receivers are not complicated devices. They can be made from nearly anything strong enough to hold those things together. Including BB and airsoft guns that are already kinda shaped like the originals.

Hell, if you just wanted to fire one shot, you could probably hold the mess together with duct tape. It wouldn't survive past the first shot, and I personally wouldn't want to be anywhere near it when it went off, but it would propel at least one bullet, possibly to lethal effect.

That's the stupid part. Instead of defining a firearm as the bits that actually do the job of launching the bullet, they defined it as the structure that holds those bits together. So the part that gets strictly regulated and tracked is that structure instead of the actual dangerous bits.

If "firearm" was defined as the actual parts of the gun that come into contact with the bullet, airsoft guns would have zero problems.



-k

[Seriously Mike]

Leading? You have people leading you through a Bureaucracy? Lucky!!!

Unless they throw more hoops at you than you can jump through. And they do.

Well, here's the problem. They technically can.

But only inasmuch as it's not at all hard to create a structure that is capable of holding the bolt assembly, barrel/chamber, and ammo feed together well enough to launch a bullet. Receivers are not complicated devices. They can be made from nearly anything strong enough to hold those things together. Including BB and airsoft guns that are already kinda shaped like the originals.

I said "easily". If you tried that with an airsoft gun, you would have to cut every obstructing bit out (and there's a shitload of them), then make the part that holds the real cartridge(s), mount the barrel so it doesn't fly off instead of the bullet, and finally make a firing pin. Once you're done with it all, you'll most probably notice that you actually didn't need the airsoft gun in the first place.
Actually, there was only one model that could have been easily converted to fire real bullets. As soon as this came to light, it was withdrawn from production and the manufacturer was fined. And no, I'm not talking about Tanaka and their Cassiopeia system - that one was a case of combined Internet bullshit and media fearmongering.

[KarmaInferno]

I suppose it depends on your definition of "easily".

I have a lathe, drill press, wirefeed welder, and an entire rack of other power tools. I could probably mill out or weld together a rough receiver out of steel stock in an afternoon or two. It wouldn't be pretty, and probably be way over-done because I don't know the actual strength requirements so I'd err on the conservative side, but it would not take THAT long.

What I could not do would be to produce a barrel and bolt assembly, the actual dangerous bits, because those require an exacting knowledge of metallurgy and ballistics engineering I don't possess to do properly. (unless you LIKE your firearms exploding in your face)

Instead of registering and tracking the manufacture and sale of the barrel and bolt groups, the actual parts of a firearm that launch the bullet and the hardest bits to make correctly, they decided to register and track the one part that never touches the bullet and pretty much anyone halfway decent with shop tools could turn out.

It's idiotic.

I suppose, though, not much more so that the various "assault weapon bans" that mostly ban parts that LOOK dangerous, rather than ARE dangerous. I mean, seriously, a "pistol grip" on a rifle somehow makes it more deadly?



-k

[Dakka Dakka]

Not to forget .50 BMG is only dangerous if fired in bursts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not to forget .50 BMG is only dangerous if fired in bursts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Whatever... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Daishi]

This vehicle is weird. It is supposed to be some kind of a dune buggy with a weapon mount. Now here is what is weird:

• The vehicle is available to everyone while sporting a forbidden modification.
• The weapon in the mount cannot be moved but must be used by a human shooter (fixed mount, manual control), other than the driver.
• The price is lower than any other car.

Judging from the description, art and stats, the Morgan is a minimalist open chassis dune buggy. Its the cheapest car because it lacks certain typical amenities such as doors or a roof. In most jurisdictions, it's probably so cut down that it's not even street legal.

As for the mount, the legality system is quite abstracted, so you shouldn't expect perfect consistency when its viable to break the pattern. Adding a weapon mount to a personal car or a plane is probably going to be for nefarious purposes, so it makes sense to make that after-market modification Forbidden. But if a vehicle is designed from the ground up for a purpose where a weapon mount could be legitimate, the same restrictions shouldn't necessarily apply. Most SR government's wouldn't be very concerned about a weapon mount on a vehicle that's specifically designed for wilderness patrols and probably not even allowed in urban areas or even on the highway.

The fixed weapon mount also bugs me. Flexible would make much more sense given the Morgan's description.

[CanRay]

It's idiotic.

I suppose, though, not much more so that the various "assault weapon bans" that mostly ban parts that LOOK dangerous, rather than ARE dangerous. I mean, seriously, a "pistol grip" on a rifle somehow makes it more deadly?

-k

A Cooling Shroud, a SAFETY DEVICE, is part of that "Assault Weapon Ban", BTW. Go figure. IIRC, the SPAS-12 was banned because of it's look as well, as there's lots of Semi-Automatic Shotguns on the market legally (Some were designed John Browning for $Deity's sake!), and they certainly couldn't have had an issue with it being able to be a Pump-Action as well, could they?

[Dakka Dakka]

Judging from the description, art and stats, the Morgan is a minimalist open chassis dune buggy. Its the cheapest car because it lacks certain typical amenities such as doors or a roof.

You might want to look around for real world "fun" vehicles. They are rarely cheap even though they lack many features found in normal vehicles.

In most jurisdictions, it's probably so cut down that it's not even street legal.

This is purely your assumption. The book does not place any restriction on the vehicle.

The fixed weapon mount also bugs me. Flexible would make much more sense given the Morgan's description.

Exactly.

[TheOOB]

I'd venture a guess that many of the prices in Shadowrun are the designers basically throwing arbitrary numbers out, so take them with a grain of salt.

I can also defiantly see that a built in mount(for hunting naturall) would be cool while modifying a car to put in a mount wouldn't be.

[Daishi]

You might want to look around for real world "fun" vehicles. They are rarely cheap even though they lack many features found in normal vehicles.

I was actually looking at military light vehicles. They can be quite expensive, but they can also be dirt cheap for small, simple models.

This is purely your assumption. The book does not place any restriction on the vehicle.

Street legality has no mechanic in SR4. Like many things, it's entirely up to the GM how to implement that, if at all. I simply provided a plausible interpretation of the Morgan.

[CanRay]

MPUVs! Are they street legal?

They're just the bastard child of the Jeep, Kubelwagen, and Hummer after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[hobgoblin]

I think there were shooting for something like THIS.

If street legal, me wants.