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> The Awakened Wheelman, Need some help creating a Mystic Adept
PresentPresence
post Oct 20 2011, 11:30 PM
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Here's what I want:
  • Ability to get from Point A to Point B regardless of obstacles.
  • Enough spellcasting ability to overcome object resistance for Analyze Device.
  • At least a Three-Trick Pony.
  • Dice pools of around 12 for important tests.
  • Combat ability.
  • Downtime functionality.
  • Command is for script-kiddies.
Specifically, I'm looking at two things: Mind over Matter (Intuition->Reaction) and The Artisan's Way. The thing I'm confused about is what attributes/skills a jumped-in rigger needs. Is Reaction only useful to a manual operator?
How can I make better use of drones than my teammates other than simply investing more nuyen into them?
Could this role get away with 5 (4) Magic and a point of 'ware?
What spells are useful to a wizrigger?
Am I the only one who thinks that the vehicle rules are confusing and weird?
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Udoshi
post Oct 21 2011, 12:53 AM
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I recall a good discussion about this a year or so ago(gosh, has it really been that long?). It may have tons of useful info for you, if you're new to rigging. You may find it here

No, you're not wrong in that vehicles are confusing. Reaction IS only useful as manual operator - but being a wheelman is plenty good. Adepts also have access to Multitasking, which can make Captain's Chair style rigging really great. Its a wonderful combination with the More Than Metahuman quality.

Adept + a point of ware is a really strong combination.

I would suggest you THOROUGHLY familiarize yourself with the vehicle rules. In particular, focus on the three main control types and what you roll to do things in each.
Autonomous Pilot Operation
Command with Control Device
Jumped In Rigging
and Manual.

Once you know the differences, pick which one(or two) you want to be good at. Across all drone control types one thing will be consistent: Skills. Your attribute portion of tests may change depening on whether you use command or jump-in or not, but your skill values are almost always the same. As an adept, you have access to the incredibly affordable Improved Technical Skill: Technical and Vehicle. Bear in mind that with a skillgroup at 4, you can use adept powers to boost the skills that you want in that group to 6.

Additionally: Sensor targeting(core book), Evasive Driving(core book), Indirect Fire and Information Guided Targeting(arsenal). Please also note that the Common Rolls For Riggers table is NOT always right, and assumes you use rules you don't have to.(case in point: jumped in riggers CAN shoot with Response as Passive Sensor Targeting is optional, not mandatory)

I'm confused about something. Why do you want Mind over Matter?
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Bodak
post Oct 21 2011, 01:26 AM
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QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 21 2011, 09:30 AM) *
Specifically, I'm looking at two things: Mind over Matter (Intuition->Reaction) and The Artisan's Way.
Is this as a spin-off of this thread a couple of months back? That was all about "a way of the artisan adept driver".
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PresentPresence
post Oct 22 2011, 07:24 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 20 2011, 07:53 PM) *
I recall a good discussion about this a year or so ago(gosh, has it really been that long?). It may have tons of useful info for you, if you're new to rigging. You may find it here

Yes, that was an interesting build. I particularly enjoyed visualizing a LEBD-1 doing Krav. But I don't think I want to be a jumped-in rigger. I want this character to be a manual driver. Yes, fluff-wise, VR is realer than real, but I want this adept to feel the wheel, not be the tires.
Also Digital Grimoire can be fucking stupid sometimes. Heightened Concentration and Manascape, for example. "Hey, what if we made metamagical techniques available for cheap at chargen?" "Sounds good."
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 20 2011, 07:53 PM) *
I'm confused about something. Why do you want Mind over Matter?

As a manual driver, I will be using Reaction to drive. As a Mystic Adept, I may use Intuition to resist Drain. To effectively use Analyze Device, I will need to cast at a high force. Mind Over Matter allows me to use my Intuition stat on my Reaction tests.
QUOTE (Bodak @ Oct 20 2011, 08:26 PM) *
Is this as a spin-off of this thread a couple of months back? That was all about "a way of the artisan adept driver".

I read that thread, but this is not really a spin-off. That thread seemed to be mostly defined by post like "hey look at my suboptimal dice pool" followed by "nuh uh mines bigger".
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Udoshi
post Oct 22 2011, 07:49 AM
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QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 01:24 AM) *
As a manual driver, I will be using Reaction to drive. As a Mystic Adept, I may use Intuition to resist Drain. To effectively use Analyze Device, I will need to cast at a high force. Mind Over Matter allows me to use my Intuition stat on my Reaction tests.


Hmn. I had fantastic lucky playing an AR-hacking cybersam Wheelman - didn't even rig at ALL. Sadly, the game was short lived.
I ended up using a combination of Move-By-Wire 2, Reaction Boosters(1 i think) Reakt, and Martial Arts with Watchful Guard. I was intending to be a combat hacker who couldn't just hold his own while being in combat, but do it while being at the front of the party. Midway through the build I realized that having such a fantastic Reaction make me an -excellent- driver, and all I had to do was take Pilot and Gunnery.
My experiences were remarkably fun. I put out 11 dice on -passive- defense on foot or in a car, and man, the party's van DANCED. I found i didn't need a really high Intuition, either - my reaction was high enough to compensate.

What i always meant to do, though, was try it out as an Adept build. All the core things that made it good are available to adepts : Reaction(improved reflexes, attribute boost), Reakt(combat sense 2) for fairly cheap. The addition of Improved Technical Skill would make it better. The best thing you can do for a multitasking build like this is cut down on the multi-attribute-dependency as much as possible. If you want to be an awakened wheelman, you probably want to go Logic tradition for the boost on all your Technical skills, and the fact that Cerebral Boosters are very affordable.


On a side note, If you're a mystic adept, you should ask your GM about using making a tradition that rolls Body+Willpower to resist train - its what Adepts do normally, so it'd be for more of an adept-y mysad.
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PresentPresence
post Oct 22 2011, 09:55 AM
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So here's some preliminary build outlines for a 'Mind Over Matter Mystic Adept of the Artisan's Way':

Intuition (and therefore Reaction):
SURGE II to max 7 (10 BP)
Genetweak to max 8 (0.2 Essence; Y45,000)
Softcap at 7 (50 BP)
Mysterious Implant II for Inspiration infusion (0.4 Essence; -10 BP)
Speedball Psyche and Betameth

Willpower:
Dwarf (25 BP)
Softcap at 6 (40)
Daredrenaline adds 1 to all tests (0.1 Essence; Y25,000)
Any martial art and Focus Will maneuver to add 2 to all tests after taking a complex action to focus, which is moot outside of combat (7 BP)
Speedball Hurlg and Nitro, Deepweed when applicable
-1 from Inspiration

Magic:
Mystic Adept (10 BP)
Witchcraft Tradition
The Artisan's Way (10 BP)
Harcap at 6, modified maximum of 5 (65 BP)
Devote 2 points to Powers:
  • Mind Over Matter, Geas: 1.125 PP
  • Improved Ability (Pilot Ground Craft) 3, Favored and Geas; Analytics 4, Favored and Geas: 0.875 PP
  • Total: 2 (I apologize for the munchkinry, Critias)
Analyze Device and Increase Reflexes + 7 other spells* (24 BP)
Power Focus R2 (Y50,000; Binding 2 BP)
Sustaining Focus (Health) (Y30,000; Binding 3 BP)
Sustaining Focus (Detection) (Y30,000; Binding 3 BP)

Skills:
Pilot Ground Craft 6 (Modified to 9 with Power) (24 BP)
Specialize in Wheeled (2 BP)
Spellcasting 4 (16 BP)
Summoning 3 (8 BP)
Binding 3 (8 BP)
Enchanting 3 (8 BP)
Specialize in Vessel Preparation (2 BP)
Automotive Mechanic 3 (8 BP)
Specialize in Wheeled (2 BP)

Y250,000 worth of resources (50BP)

Gross: 359 BP

Dice Pools:
Intuition: Base 7 + Inspiration 1 + Psyche 1 + Betameth 1 = 10
Willpower: Base 6 + Hurlg 1 + Nitro 2 = 9 (10 when using Deepweed)
Pilot Groundcraft: Reaction->Intuition 10 + Skill 6 + Improved Ability 3 + Specialization 2 + AR 1= 22 +/- Handling
Resist Drain: Intuition 10 + Willpower 9 + Daredrenaline 1 + Focus Will 2 = 22

Notes:
I can also prepare my vehicle as a vessel for possession.
Item Attunement won't be better than AR for 3 initiate grades. By then I can have a decent Ally Spirit who can inhabit my ride with a Hybrid Form. I can also teach it Pilot Ground Craft so it can drive itself, and other cool stuff that Ally Spirits can do.



tl;dr >20 dice pools for driving and resisting drain
So, any other optimizations/ideas you guys can think of?
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Makki
post Oct 22 2011, 10:11 AM
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getr yourself a Ford Focus!
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PresentPresence
post Oct 22 2011, 10:18 AM
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I saw what you did there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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UmaroVI
post Oct 22 2011, 01:13 PM
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You should keep in mind that Mind over Matter only helps you with tests - it doesn't improve your initiative score. I'm not really confidant that Intuition->Reaction is worth it because Initiative is so important, but if anyone can use it effectively I think it would be a driver.

Analyze Device is just not going to work for you. You get a bonus based on NET hits, and you're going up against OR 5. Your dice pool is, assuming you pick up a mentor and a specialization for detection, 4+4+2+2=12. That's not happening.

Skills at 3 are 12bp, not 8bp

Analytics 4? Are you planning to try to con your GM into letting it add to spellcasting skills or something? It's a goofy fluff power, and I don't see it as being remotely worth the price for it. Maaaaaaaybe analytics 1 if your GM is the type to let you roll for things you otherwise wouldn't get to roll for with it (which it does not do, RAW).

You don't have Gunnery, which seems an odd choice if you want combat functionality.

You can't choose your Mysterious Impact to just so happen to "mysteriously" be the one that would be super-beneficial to you. "The character has a mysterious implant in her body of which she is unaware. The gamemaster chooses the implant, and the char-acter does not become aware of its existence until the gamemaster chooses to reveal it—perhaps by having it kick in at an inconve-nient time or show up on a detector when the character tries to travel or pass unnoticed into a corporate environment."

Get a Mentor Spirit.

I would think really hard about coughing up for Restricted Gear and making that power focus force 4.



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PresentPresence
post Oct 22 2011, 07:50 PM
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Initiative Score is a test, and it uses REA + INT. I can replace REA with INT for any test. Arguable, yes, but I am working under the assumption that it works for Initiative Score.

Analyze Device is going to be difficult, but it's something that can be done outside of combat, allowing things like Aid Sorcery and Aspected Backgrounds.

Skills cost brainfart.

Analytics 4 is just what I ended up having as a result of Artisan's Way and geas. I am starting to think that the Artisan's Way is not useful for a Mind Over Matter user. Item Attunement is stupid for manual drivers. You can't use AR, which adds 1 die, and you can't beat that until you get to initiate to grade 3. That's window-licking stupid. A better use of your karma is getting yourself a sweet Ally Spirit to inhabit your wheels. It's basically a magical Pilot that can do a bunch of great stuff for you. I mean, a car that counterspells for you? A motorcycle that casts stunbolts? How cool is that? And you can still use AR while driving it. However, Artisan's Way adepts can apply Adept Centering to Vehicle Skills, which is very cool.

Gunnery seemed like something I would leave the other characters to do from outside of my windows.

Yeah, that's some twinkery that crosses the line.

Getting a Mentor Spirit and a Power Focus require me to free up some Quality BP. Right now, I have Mystic Adept 10 + SURGE II 10 + The Artisan's Way 10 + Martial Arts I 5 = 35. If I drop The Artisan's Way I can get a Mentor Spirit and a better focus. I think it's worth it, because I have plenty of driving dice.

Which Mentor Spirit should I choose? The ones that add to Detection Spells are Dog (I don't have spirits of man), Eagle (Air Spirits are good for combat), Snake (Binding is useful for a possession mage, but I might want to cast Stunbolts), Spider (Illusion Spells are useful, but I want to be quick on my feet), Sky Father (Manipulation Spells might seem good for a techwiz, but in practice they seem pretty crappy. Fix, for example. Cars are just too heavy to do anything useful with), and Wise Warrior (A bonus to Combat spells, and -1 to everything all the time. I'm a shadowrunner; I do dishonorable things for fun and profit.)

I also need to use up some more Essence. Any suggestions?
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HunterHerne
post Oct 22 2011, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 03:50 PM) *
Initiative Score is a test, and it uses REA + INT. I can replace REA with INT for any test. Arguable, yes, but I am working under the assumption that it works for Initiative Score.

Yes, the test will use int*2, but your score before adding hits will still be rea+int. So, if Int is 6, and rea 1, you have 12 dice to roll, with an average 4 hits, bringng you initiative that round to 11.
QUOTE
Which Mentor Spirit should I choose? The ones that add to Detection Spells are Dog (I don't have spirits of man), Eagle (Air Spirits are good for combat), Snake (Binding is useful for a possession mage, but I might want to cast Stunbolts), Spider (Illusion Spells are useful, but I want to be quick on my feet), Sky Father (Manipulation Spells might seem good for a techwiz, but in practice they seem pretty crappy. Fix, for example. Cars are just too heavy to do anything useful with), and Wise Warrior (A bonus to Combat spells, and -1 to everything all the time. I'm a shadowrunner; I do dishonorable things for fun and profit.)

Go snake. The one dice penalty isn't so bad, and you can have snake-like effects for a shamanic mask.
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PresentPresence
post Oct 22 2011, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Oct 22 2011, 03:16 PM) *
Yes, the test will use int*2, but your score before adding hits will still be rea+int. So, if Int is 6, and rea 1, you have 12 dice to roll, with an average 4 hits, bringng you initiative that round to 11.

Good point, but with drugs and Increase Reflexes, we're looking at a base Initiative of Intuition (Base 7 + Betameth 1 + Psyche 1) 9 + Reaction (Base 1 + Betameth 2) 3 + Increase Reflexes 2 (If sustained in a Force 3 focus) = 14, and the Score would roll Intuition 9 x 2 for an average of 6 hits. 20 Initiative ain't bad.

QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Oct 22 2011, 03:16 PM) *
Go snake. The one dice penalty isn't so bad, and you can have snake-like effects for a shamanic mask.

"Me beard is alive!"
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UmaroVI
post Oct 22 2011, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 03:50 PM) *
Analytics 4 is just what I ended up having as a result of Artisan's Way and geas. I am starting to think that the Artisan's Way is not useful for a Mind Over Matter user. Item Attunement is stupid for manual drivers. You can't use AR, which adds 1 die, and you can't beat that until you get to initiate to grade 3. That's window-licking stupid. A better use of your karma is getting yourself a sweet Ally Spirit to inhabit your wheels. It's basically a magical Pilot that can do a bunch of great stuff for you. I mean, a car that counterspells for you? A motorcycle that casts stunbolts? How cool is that? And you can still use AR while driving it. However, Artisan's Way adepts can apply Adept Centering to Vehicle Skills, which is very cool.

Gunnery seemed like something I would leave the other characters to do from outside of my windows.

Getting a Mentor Spirit and a Power Focus require me to free up some Quality BP. Right now, I have Mystic Adept 10 + SURGE II 10 + The Artisan's Way 10 + Martial Arts I 5 = 35. If I drop The Artisan's Way I can get a Mentor Spirit and a better focus. I think it's worth it, because I have plenty of driving dice.

Which Mentor Spirit should I choose? The ones that add to Detection Spells are Dog (I don't have spirits of man), Eagle (Air Spirits are good for combat), Snake (Binding is useful for a possession mage, but I might want to cast Stunbolts), Spider (Illusion Spells are useful, but I want to be quick on my feet), Sky Father (Manipulation Spells might seem good for a techwiz, but in practice they seem pretty crappy. Fix, for example. Cars are just too heavy to do anything useful with), and Wise Warrior (A bonus to Combat spells, and -1 to everything all the time. I'm a shadowrunner; I do dishonorable things for fun and profit.)

I also need to use up some more Essence. Any suggestions?


I agree - I don't think you're getting your money's worth out of the Way, and I would much rather have a Mentor Spirit and Restricted Gear.

On second thought you are right about gunnery, as an analog driver.

As a Possession mage, IMO, Snake all the way. Task spirits are the ones you want (because Gunnery is a Technical Skill, you put the task spirit with Gunnery in your drone and let it kamurder things), and nobody gives +2 Task, so +2 Binding is the way to go. There's other neat tricks that make Binding worthwhile, such as Invoking. -1 dice to one spell you use sometimes is well, well worth it.

Looks like you have Dareadrenaline (.1), GenOp Intuition (.2)?

Some good stuff:
Attention Coprocessor: high Perception is always good, and you have a high Intuition already.
Cyberhand or cyberfoot with a nanohive and Neocortical for +3 to your automotive mechanic. Alternatively, go whole hog with an alphaware cyberarm with boosted agility, and rely on that and a weapon skill for fighting outside vehicles.
You can never go wrong with reflex recorders for skills you care about.
Genetic Optimization: Willpower would let you hit the breakpoint for an extra Stun box.




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Manunancy
post Oct 23 2011, 07:43 AM
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QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 11:55 AM) *
Dice Pools:
Intuition: Base 7 + Inspiration 1 + Psyche 1 + Betameth 1 = 10
Willpower: Base 6 + Hurlg 1 + Nitro 2 = 9 (10 when using Deepweed)


If you're using all four (or five...) at the same time, you'd better to be stopped in safe place - and preferably with a medic on hand - when you crash down from all that. The landing is going to be rough....

That sort of mix sounds like a great way to get started on the Path of the Burnout....
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 23 2011, 10:25 AM
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QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Oct 22 2011, 10:16 PM) *
Yes, the test will use int*2, but your score before adding hits will still be rea+int. So, if Int is 6, and rea 1, you have 12 dice to roll, with an average 4 hits, bringng you initiative that round to 11.
Actually even that does not work. You do not roll REA+INT, you roll your Initiative Attribute. Adding REA and INT to calculate your Initiative Attribute is not a test and as such REA will not be replaced by INT through Mind over Matter. So in the example above you will be rolling 7 dice and add the hits to 7.
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 144')
To determine a character's Initiative Score, make an Initiative Test using his Initiative attribute. (A character's Initiative attribute is the sum of Reaction and Intuition.) Edge may be used on this test. Add the hits to your Initiative attribute—this total is your Initiative Score.
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HunterHerne
post Oct 23 2011, 11:51 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 23 2011, 06:25 AM) *
Actually even that does not work. You do not roll REA+INT, you roll your Initiative Attribute. Adding REA and INT to calculate your Initiative Attribute is not a test and as such REA will not be replaced by INT through Mind over Matter. So in the example above you will be rolling 7 dice and add the hits to 7.


Fair enough. And my mistake.
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Ryu
post Oct 23 2011, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Oct 22 2011, 11:10 PM) *
As a Possession mage, IMO, Snake all the way. Task spirits are the ones you want (because Gunnery is a Technical Skill, you put the task spirit with Gunnery in your drone and let it kamurder things), and nobody gives +2 Task, so +2 Binding is the way to go. There's other neat tricks that make Binding worthwhile, such as Invoking. -1 dice to one spell you use sometimes is well, well worth it.

Gunnery is a Vehicle Active skill. Remember your jumped-in cheese (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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PresentPresence
post Oct 23 2011, 07:37 PM
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I dunno, I still think the whole initiative thing is arguable, but we will probably never get an "official" answer anyways like Critias does with his unofficial errata. For such a potentially game-changing power, it has a remarkable lack of wording. It's seriously like only one paragraph.

Task spirits are super awesome for possession traditions.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 23 2011, 07:49 PM
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It seems pretty clear, at least in intent. Swapping for Body doesn't increase your armor cap; swapping for Strength doesn't change your pre-test weight cap, nor even (IIRC?) your melee damage. Etc. Your Init *Score* is a precalc stat, not 'part of the test', in the way that linked attribs are.
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Critias
post Oct 23 2011, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 23 2011, 02:37 PM) *
I dunno, I still think the whole initiative thing is arguable, but we will probably never get an "official" answer anyways like Critias does with his unofficial errata. For such a potentially game-changing power, it has a remarkable lack of wording. It's seriously like only one paragraph.

Task spirits are super awesome for possession traditions.

FWIW, War! was (just) before "my time." I had nothing to do with the adept powers and such in there. I integrated a few of 'em when I thought they made sense (on the favored lists in Ways, that sort of thing), but I'm in the same boat as you guys are, when it comes to knowing exactly how they work.
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PresentPresence
post Oct 23 2011, 09:09 PM
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Well, how much Iniative and how many IPs does a manual driver need? I can put a Force 3 Increase Reflexes in my focus, and if I really wanted to I could have a plant spirit sustain a Force 4. That gives me +2-3 Initative and Passes. Casting Increase Reaction would be easy too because the base is so low. Force 3 would be easy to resist drain. Also, do I need to cast Analyze Device at at least F6 to get any benefit out of it? If so, do I have to sustain it? And why did they make spells to affect technology (like Fix) knowing that they would likely have to pass such a high object resistance threshold?
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UmaroVI
post Oct 23 2011, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ Oct 23 2011, 01:42 PM) *
Gunnery is a Vehicle Active skill. Remember your jumped-in cheese (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oops, you're right. And no spirit type gets Vehicle skills. I must have been thinking about Tutor sprites.

I wonder what the best way to get spirits to help with drones is, then? If they possess a drone with mounted weapons, the weapon uses Gunnery which the spirit doesn't have, and the spirit cannot use autosofts. An Ally Spirit could have Gunnery, of course, but you only get one of those.

Maybe the way to go is drones with mechanical arms and held weapons plus Guardian spirits? Although I want to see autonomous Dodge Guardians with mounted weapons carrying zombies with machine guns.
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HunterHerne
post Oct 24 2011, 12:46 AM
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QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 23 2011, 05:09 PM) *
Well, how much Iniative and how many IPs does a manual driver need? I can put a Force 3 Increase Reflexes in my focus, and if I really wanted to I could have a plant spirit sustain a Force 4. That gives me +2-3 Initative and Passes. Casting Increase Reaction would be easy too because the base is so low. Force 3 would be easy to resist drain. Also, do I need to cast Analyze Device at at least F6 to get any benefit out of it? If so, do I have to sustain it? And why did they make spells to affect technology (like Fix) knowing that they would likely have to pass such a high object resistance threshold?


To make people think they are better te they really are. Also, they are pretty basic spells, except the fact they are mostly worthless.

That said, analyze device does have it's uses. Operating a vehicle or commlink just aren't them. It'll help you take maglocks apart, or run a scanner.
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Manunancy
post Oct 24 2011, 04:59 AM
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QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 23 2011, 11:09 PM) *
Well, how much Iniative and how many IPs does a manual driver need? I can put a Force 3 Increase Reflexes in my focus, and if I really wanted to I could have a plant spirit sustain a Force 4. That gives me +2-3 Initative and Passes. Casting Increase Reaction would be easy too because the base is so low. Force 3 would be easy to resist drain. Also, do I need to cast Analyze Device at at least F6 to get any benefit out of it? If so, do I have to sustain it? And why did they make spells to affect technology (like Fix) knowing that they would likely have to pass such a high object resistance threshold?


Fix will work on low tech items - for things like fixing a broken toaster in the morning, patching bullet holes in your clothes or a dented blade it's working fine. But using it on something complex or high tech is definitively stretcfhing the spell to the limits of it's abilities.
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 24 2011, 05:16 AM
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Now read the section about wireless connectivity (SR4A p. 313). So (nearly) everything is at least OR 3 for the contained electronics.
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