Meeting the Johnson, Should the heavily cybered person go or not? Options

[Saint Hallow]

I play the cyber combat support character (aka razorboi/street sammy/gunbunny), & as such I have a number of restricted/forbidden implants in me. Our GM has been having us meet Johnsons a lot in triple AAA rated areas with scanners galore. This has been making going to meets difficult for me. Should I continue trying to go to these meets, or trust in my group to be able to talk/handle things when I am not there?

Its no surprise when the deckerhacker decides to appear at the meetup electronically, but the street samurai?

I would like to say I trust my team, but I don't. My fellow players are fine, but my character doesn't think they have the sense to know what jobs to take or for the right amount of coin.

[Yerameyahu]

If that's the setup, there's no reason to go. If you don't trust your team, and you can't be there via matrix, you need to not be on a team. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's kind of anachronistic to even have meat meets in the first place.

[vladski]

Meat meets are just cool. As a GM, I liked to have the characters meet up with the Johnson (or his rep) in a variety of places. There was their standard Runner bar where they were regulars and had some control over the meet. (Their communal fixer owned the place.) But frequently the runners would meet Mr. J where he wanted, which could be anything from a bar to a nightclub to a park to a posh residential penthouse. They've met in a church and in a McHughs! They once even met in the parking lot of a Lonestar precinct!!

The different locales provided a nice springboard for roleplaying as well as tactics. Usually a sniper was positioned outside the meet to deal with anyone that was trying to screw the party. Frequently the meet was attended by the non-cyber adept (with astral perception) and the face. The rigger would be near-by with his war wagon all warmed up. Admittedly, the party mostly trusted one another in these situations. At the very least, they trusted their face.

Sure, a meet could be handled purely electronically, encrypted and scrambled to high heaven. But, I tend to think that most folks want to see who they are hiring and see who is hiring them mutually.

Vlad

[Midas]

This is something for you to take up with your GM. How would he handle ID checks and cyberware checks in these AAA areas? This information is something your character should know about having lived in the gameworld for quite a while, so it is fair enough that your character know about the risks involved in going to such an area. If there is even a small chance that your fake SIN could be blown and/or you get arrested, then it is probably not worth the risk.

Do the rest of the team want you at the meet in case things go sour? In that case, you might want to try and negotiate a change of setting with the Johnson via your fixer, who should be diplomatic enough to ensure the meet goes ahead without you if the Johnson is unwilling to change the venue.

Also, depending on what security measures are being taken at the meet, it is possibe (with the J's understanding) that you attend virtually via the hacker's commlink or something.

[Saint Hallow]

If you don't trust your team, and you can't be there via matrix, you need to not be on a team. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The distrust was acquired after a few missions and seeing how the "team" behaved IC. As a result my character's attitude toward teh "team" is shaky. I like my game group (as they are the only SR4A game going in NYC I could find), but the characters a mix of some very oddballs. As a result, IC friction has developed. Can't be helped.

[TheOOB]

Well, if saying "We're here to meet Mr. Johnson" doesn't get you past the scanners, Mr. Johnson doesn't have enough money to hire you, problem solved.

[kzt]

The whole idea that the guy who is hiring "deniable assets" to commit major crimes will want the people he is hiring to know anything about him, much less see and talk to him, has always been a bit of SR insanity. It's a lot easier to deny the assets when they don't know you exist, it's much harder when they can produce recordings of you soliciting them to commit crimes.

But the question is a GM issue. If the GM wants your character to show up he will arrange it. If not, then consider your options, which include changing characters, trusting your face to make a deal or leaving.

[TheOOB]

The whole idea that the guy who is hiring "deniable assets" to commit major crimes will want the people he is hiring to know anything about him, much less see and talk to him, has always been a bit of SR insanity. It's a lot easier to deny the assets when they don't know you exist, it's much harder when they can produce recordings of you soliciting them to commit crimes.

But the question is a GM issue. If the GM wants your character to show up he will arrange it. If not, then consider your options, which include changing characters, trusting your face to make a deal or leaving.

Remember that being a Shadowrunner is kind of like a badge of honor, any runner worth the name won't sell out Mr. J unless they are given a damn good reason, because if they do it they basically will never get any work every again, which means that Mr. J usually doesn't have much to worry about when hiring runners unless he is either a) hiring green runners who don't have a rep, or b) not doing legwork on the runners.

The physical meet in really for the runners, it helps the runners to trust Mr. J, and it's a sign of good faith from Mr. J, after all, if the Johnson was planning on betraying the runners or skipping out on payment, he wouldn't risk a face to face where the runners could get a good look at the Johnson and have a chance to do some legwork based on what they know. In effect, most good runner teams will end up charging more if they can't meet Johnson face to face, because there really is less security for the runners, if an Anonymous person over the matrix doesn't pay up, there isn't a lot you can do.

[Ascalaphus]

If it's Johnson that wants the face-to-face meet, and he wants to meet the entire team, then he should pick a meeting place that the entire team can go to.

On the other hand, I'm not wild about characters with so much findable illegal gear that they can't infiltrate a high-security place. I mean, infiltrating high-security places is a major part of what you're supposed to be doing as a shadowrunner...

[Glyph]

The whole idea that the guy who is hiring "deniable assets" to commit major crimes will want the people he is hiring to know anything about him, much less see and talk to him, has always been a bit of SR insanity.

Remember, though, the Johnson is a deniable asset himself, and usually has layers of disguise and misdirection for dealing with shadowrunners.


On meets in high security areas, I agree with TheOOB. The Johnson should be waving the characters past security. You shouldn't have to plan out a complex infiltration just to get to the meet - unless the meet is in a high security or exclusive place specifically to test the group's ability to get in. But it's an ill-conceived test, though, because not every member of the team is necessarily an infiltration expert - there is also the muscle, the getaway driver, etc. And those people might want to be at the meet, too - these guys may work together, but they are still more or less independent contractors.

[Ascalaphus]

Why does the Johnson want to meet physically? There's different possible reasons.

- He doesn't; the runners want to. Because they don't trust him, perhaps (didn't the fixer vouch for Johnson?). If Johnson picks a spot where the runners can't actually get to him, that doesn't help to create trust.

- Because he wants to assess them face to face. Maybe because he has Assensing, maybe just because he's better at face to face working with people. If he wants to assess all of the team, he should insist the entire team shows up (even the hacker!). It doesn't help a lot to deny entrance to the people you want to meet.

- To hand over objects the runners need, or to show them files or suchlike physically. In this case, the runners really only need a representative.



As for the player side...

- If you can't even trust your teammates with the Johnson meet, why do you trust them to watch your back during a run?

- Why not insist on a live feed from the Face's cybereyes/glasses, just like the hacker is getting?

[UmaroVI]

On the other hand, I'm not wild about characters with so much findable illegal gear that they can't infiltrate a high-security place. I mean, infiltrating high-security places is a major part of what you're supposed to be doing as a shadowrunner...

You do realize that the threshold for "can't reliably get past a Cyberware scanner" is "any F cyberware at all," right? There's really no way around that. Even with delta-grade cyberware, you have a 10% chance of getting busted every time you go through a scanner.

Also keep in mind there's a difference between "can't casually walk into a high security place through the front door like a normal visitor" and "can't break into a high security place." But the Johnson probably doesn't want you hacking his security system so that you can show up and talk to him in person.

[Ascalaphus]

You do realize that the threshold for "can't reliably get past a Cyberware scanner" is "any F cyberware at all," right? There's really no way around that. Even with delta-grade cyberware, you have a 10% chance of getting busted every time you go through a scanner.

So maybe F-classified cyber is a liability, not necessarily an asset? How many F-cyber do you really need, that can't be disguised as something legal, or replaced with something less restricted?

Also keep in mind there's a difference between "can't casually walk into a high security place through the front door like a normal visitor" and "can't break into a high security place." But the Johnson probably doesn't want you hacking his security system so that you can show up and talk to him in person.

It's a pretty big hindrance if you can only infiltrate by being unseen, never by not being seen for what you are. It makes going in through the front door in disguise impossible, which is a serious sacrifice.

[Wakshaani]

A few other thoughts:

Having the big metal-throbbing tough helps if things go sour. The big slabs of meat that stand around when the smallguys yap know the drill ... they tend to be pretty calm about things and give each other a few looks that small people think are "Try anything and I mess you up", but really mean "Your twirp a PITA as well?" /"Yup."

Aside from that, those who are most fitting for the meeting area should be there (Topped by the face, natch) while the rest hangback and do overwatch rolls. When you're in a triple-A eatery, Clyde McClankypants should probably not be there. In contrast, if the Johnson is getting you to meet at some seedy Shadowrunner bar, then he *expects* big scary people to be there. It shows that you're a "legit" running team in his eyes.

Of course, a goo dmeeting area sets a whole lot of tones, and it's good to play with your players from time to time by mixing it up. It's refreshing to have them gather up in the zoo, for instance... it's public, but has enough twists and turns to give you some privacy, different groups wander around, linger at the same area, then seperate all the time, so it doesn't look suspicious. And, you know, your party's ork or troll meatshield gets to enjoy some cotton candy. I heart that.

[Kirk]

A few other thoughts:

Having the big metal-throbbing tough helps if things go sour. The big slabs of meat that stand around when the smallguys yap know the drill ... they tend to be pretty calm about things and give each other a few looks that small people think are "Try anything and I mess you up", but really mean "Your twirp a PITA as well?" /"Yup."

Aside from that, those who are most fitting for the meeting area should be there (Topped by the face, natch) while the rest hangback and do overwatch rolls. When you're in a triple-A eatery, Clyde McClankypants should probably not be there. In contrast, if the Johnson is getting you to meet at some seedy Shadowrunner bar, then he *expects* big scary people to be there. It shows that you're a "legit" running team in his eyes.

Of course, a goo dmeeting area sets a whole lot of tones, and it's good to play with your players from time to time by mixing it up. It's refreshing to have them gather up in the zoo, for instance... it's public, but has enough twists and turns to give you some privacy, different groups wander around, linger at the same area, then seperate all the time, so it doesn't look suspicious. And, you know, your party's ork or troll meatshield gets to enjoy some cotton candy. I heart that.

heh. Zoo's one of my places. In addition to what you mentioned, there are a lot of places in the zoo that are ungood for sensors. Amusement parks are good as well.

I tend to go to matrix meetings, though. First, it neuters most of the face boosts. Second, it's difficult for third parties to intercept the discussion. Third... put your meat in a vehicle and tell it to go walkabout, and even if you're traced it's hard to catch you. The downside is there's a lot less evidence for identifying Mr. Johnson. Of course, if you're the GM doing this that's not necessarily a bad thing from your point of view (grin).

[Yerameyahu]

Saint Hallow, I'm talking about the IC side. You can't run (repeatedly) with people you don't even trust enough to go get the job. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

The major question: Will Mr. "I have less than 1 Essence" behave himself during the interview?

The one game I sort-of played (Everyone save me and another player got called away, and the GM had to revise the whole thing on the fly!), had this nutbar show up while I was Mr. Cool with my Norse Tradition Magician/Face.

As I asked one of my contacts right after the meet, "Did they start putting Lead in the water after I left Seattle?" "Did they ever stop?" "Good point."

[HunterHerne]

The major question: Will Mr. "I have less than 1 Essence" behave himself during the interview?

The one game I sort-of played (Everyone save me and another player got called away, and the GM had to revise the whole thing on the fly!), had this nutbar show up while I was Mr. Cool with my Norse Tradition Magician/Face.

As I asked one of my contacts right after the meet, "Did they start putting Lead in the water after I left Seattle?" "Did they ever stop?" "Good point."

*Sigh* My first time GM'ing SR, I had a player like that. He loved the combat side, and pretty much used skillwires to compensate for all his other skills. His Essance was about 1, and he actually threatened another PC during the Johnson meet. Needless to say, he pissed off the other players (which wasn't hard. I had been DM'ing D&D for that same group, and they were sick of his spotlight hogging and the group had literally taken time to kill 3 of his characters that were just evil SOB's)

[Yerameyahu]

There's not particular connection between low Essence, Forbidden gear, or too-crazy-to-exist-ness, though.

[HunterHerne]

There's not particular connection between low Essence, Forbidden gear, or too-crazy-to-exist-ness, though.

That all depends. Much of the Augmentaton negative qualities require an amount of essence to be lost before you qualify (cyberpsychosis), which indicates there is supposed to be a link. This is largely a fluff thing though, and it's up to a GM to make use of the fluff to impede an overly cybered character, if he feels it necessary.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* Combat Monster, Prejudice, Compulsion, etc. have no such requirements, and neither does 'being a stupid, bad player'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There is some Cyber Eats Your Soul in SR4, but so does everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ryu]

The whole idea that the guy who is hiring "deniable assets" to commit major crimes will want the people he is hiring to know anything about him, much less see and talk to him, has always been a bit of SR insanity. It's a lot easier to deny the assets when they don't know you exist, it's much harder when they can produce recordings of you soliciting them to commit crimes.

I envision a triple-blind scenario for that - runners, fixers and johnsons all know what everyone else is basically doing. But not the details.

Knowledge of individual runs would not spread far as long as the run didn´t make "15 minutes of fame" and the J fulfilled all promises. Loose lips, sink ships.

The fixer does not want to screw either the runners or Mr. J as that is dangerous business.

Runners srewing their pipeline will not have many subsequent runs. A pro merc has to stay bought for the agreed-upon task.

And J´s srewing runners have to deal with surviving crews.

[HunterHerne]

*shrug* Combat Monster, Prejudice, Compulsion, etc. have no such requirements, and neither does 'being a stupid, bad player'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There is some Cyber Eats Your Soul in SR4, but so does everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

True. Much of those are also likely to occur without augmentation. I'm not saying it's going to happen to everyone, but I have no issue with causing mental anguish for overly augmented characters. Fortunitely, my current players have no low essence issues, the lowest being 3.2

[Ascalaphus]

There's not particular connection between low Essence, Forbidden gear, or too-crazy-to-exist-ness, though.

I think in practice they're often correlated, with the player being the common factor...

[Paul]

In my own games it's rare for the players to actually meet "Mr. Johnson"-the guy who's actually paying for the job. Usually it's a cut out, or an anonymous online meeting.

The idea that being a "Shadowrunner" is some how a badge of honor, or some how makes you part of some self styled Bushido like code is ridiculous to us as well. (At your own table do as you'd like, obviously.)This isn't to say my players are constantly selling out their employers, but rather they understand that doing so can increase their risks. So every time they look at the situation it becomes a risk management scenario-what carries the least risk with the greatest benefit?