[X] My Assistant

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

The Fixer's also there to keep both sides relatively unsure of the other side's ID, even if he knows it.

Should the PCs start sniffing around Johnson's ID, the Fixer should step in and be, like, "Look, I told you he was legit. EIther you trust me on this or find another deal-maker." ... Johnson's employer relies on being a deniable resource, just as he needs the Shadowrunners as deniable assets. When names come out, everybody's in trouble.

Similarly, the Fixer won't call you 'Jeff' in front of the Johnson, even if you married his brother. You get to be 'Mad Dog' as long as an outsider is around.

So, the groupings look like:

Shadowrunners --> Fixer --> neutral <-- Johnson <-- Client

SOmetimes, Johnson *is* the Client, but usually not.

(edit)
Oh, and, yes, teh Fixer's rep is on the line, almost as much as your own. Trying to scam the Johnson makes the fixer look bad and hurts his business. Never a good idea.

But it's not like any of this is commonly accepted. In other groups, not doing a personal and thorough background check on the J might constitute a possibly lethal oversight... you just shouldn't get caught doing it.

[CanRay]

It also depends on the Shadowculture of the area. Not all Biz is run like it is in Seattle.

[JonathanC]

If that's the setup, there's no reason to go. If you don't trust your team, and you can't be there via matrix, you need to not be on a team. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's kind of anachronistic to even have meat meets in the first place.

I tend to think in-person meets are better for security. Even if you encrypt your communications to the nth degree, anything on the matrix ends up in the deep resonance, right? So any Technnomancer with level 1 immersion can fish out your conversation. Plus, most Johnsons, I imagine, would want to get a look at the team they're hiring.

[Yerameyahu]

Nothing is really secure, though. There are about a thousand ways to compromise a meat meet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) The fact is that some people use e-presence, therefore everyone can.

And technomancers are magic BS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Kirk]

I tend to think in-person meets are better for security. Even if you encrypt your communications to the nth degree, anything on the matrix ends up in the deep resonance, right? So any Technnomancer with level 1 immersion can fish out your conversation. Plus, most Johnsons, I imagine, would want to get a look at the team they're hiring.

Yerameyahu already addressed the security issue. It's harder than you'd think IN CONJUNCTION WITH maintaining deniability.

My actual laugh, however, was about wanting to look at the team they're hiring. Why?

Seriously. First, there's the matter of witnesses and moles. The more people, the more ways things can go sideways.

Second -- so I can see the person the face says is their tech. And seeing them tells me what, exactly? Oooh, the face says the troll is the team muscle, and that's certainly stereotypical. But is it true? And as Mr. Johnson how the crap do I tell if she is or if she's a mage wearing armor and carrying a big gun she can't use for squat? After all, I sure as crap don't want her to draw and use it at the meet.

For somewhat experienced Johnsons I like sole contact meets. Meat with backup (for each of us) near but out of sight, but preferably on the matrix because that's actually easier to secure AND less likely to let you identify me. Add an agreeable escrow drop of bearer-type credsticks (you can verify they're there, I know you won't get them till I send the release), and it's workable for us both. (Yes, you and I can both still screw with that situation, but it is harder.)

[JonathanC]

Yerameyahu already addressed the security issue. It's harder than you'd think IN CONJUNCTION WITH maintaining deniability.

My actual laugh, however, was about wanting to look at the team they're hiring. Why?

Seriously. First, there's the matter of witnesses and moles. The more people, the more ways things can go sideways.

Second -- so I can see the person the face says is their tech. And seeing them tells me what, exactly? Oooh, the face says the troll is the team muscle, and that's certainly stereotypical. But is it true? And as Mr. Johnson how the crap do I tell if she is or if she's a mage wearing armor and carrying a big gun she can't use for squat? After all, I sure as crap don't want her to draw and use it at the meet.

I find it amusing that in your world, Johnsons show up to meets alone, and rely only on their own powers of observation. I suppose it all depends on the type of clients you're working with. For a corp Johnson, it'd be trivial to have a team during an in-person meet astrally scanned (which would turn up your mage in disguise, for example). Getting a look at the team isn't so much about figuring out who's who as it is about observing the runners and how they carry themselves in public. If you set up a meet in a nightclub and their face can't even manage to get them past the bouncers, or their Troll is picking fights in line, then clearly these aren't the "professionals" the fixer told you they were.

If anonymity is the key for the Johnson, then a Matrix meet makes sense, though once again, there is no security measure that can stop a TM from retrieving the info from the Deep Resonance. If, however, the team is unknown to the Johnson and the job requires quality work, nothing will beat direct observation.

[Kirk]

I find it amusing that in your world, Johnsons show up to meets alone, and rely only on their own powers of observation. I suppose it all depends on the type of clients you're working with. For a corp Johnson, it'd be trivial to have a team during an in-person meet astrally scanned (which would turn up your mage in disguise, for example). Getting a look at the team isn't so much about figuring out who's who as it is about observing the runners and how they carry themselves in public. If you set up a meet in a nightclub and their face can't even manage to get them past the bouncers, or their Troll is picking fights in line, then clearly these aren't the "professionals" the fixer told you they were.

If anonymity is the key for the Johnson, then a Matrix meet makes sense, though once again, there is no security measure that can stop a TM from retrieving the info from the Deep Resonance. If, however, the team is unknown to the Johnson and the job requires quality work, nothing will beat direct observation.

Are you telling me that the Johnson is going to look at the team and say, "Nope, I don't want you and your team"? or rather, that it happens with any frequency in your world? Seriously, does that happen often in your world?

As for meeting alone, it's a matter of definition. In fact, reread my earlier post: "with backup (for each of us) near but out of sight". Think about it a bit. Mr. Johnson isn't the boss. Mr. Johnson is the person with the authority to negotiate and agree. If he's corp, he's got a max limit. (If he's like a lot of corps, he may get a bonus based on how much he doesn't spend.)

If he's newby independent he may not HAVE a team, it's just him negotiating for an extraction. If so, he's one guy facing... your TEAM? who might be working for the people who do NOT want him to leave?

If I'm good enough and connected enough to have a team to check out your team, I can do it before the meet. Every member of my security who's present is another person from whom you can pick up information I don't want to give. Two of us, your face and me, with our security outside a 200 or 500 meter perimeter after mutually clearing the meet site. No crowds that say "Look, a meeting". No need to get a bunch of people in and out. No need to watch a whole bunch of directions.

So yes, in my world one on one is fairly common. Especially if there are over-augmented gorillas with control issues around.

[Paul]

If we do have a physical meet, with an actual employer, and not a cut out-it's not uncommon for those individuals to have security arrangements, and to have done back ground checks on the team. Even if it's an independent they're like to have a cousin or a friend they can trust as nearby as they can reasonably get away with.

The Fixer my current group of player characters deal with has multiple layers of security. Some is more intrusive than the others-but it starts with a roll of quarters and goes up from there!

[Ol' Scratch]

The whole point of Mr. Johnson is that he, too, is a deniable asset. He's an extra layer between the employers and the runners. He (should) only has basic information about the runners via the Fixer, and the runners (should) know little to nothing about who the Johnson is working for. And the Fixer doesn't want to know who the Johnson is working for; he's just an agent for the runners. The fewer details he knows about anything going on, the better. The Johnson may not even know who he's working for; he's a contracted negotiator and get-the-job-done man. And, even bettern whoever hired the Johnson has no idea who the runners are, hence the deniability bit.

That's the ideal set-up and the entire point of a Fixer and a Mr. Johnson. I'm not saying that's how most groups use them, but it is the point of those contact archetypes.

[JonathanC]

Are you telling me that the Johnson is going to look at the team and say, "Nope, I don't want you and your team"? or rather, that it happens with any frequency in your world? Seriously, does that happen often in your world?

A fair question. Realistically, it *should* happen to Shadowrunners who don't know how to act in public. Now, I don't know what your groups are like, but I've been in plenty of groups where there's at least one guy who does crazy/stupid stuff. He makes the game fun, but there should be consequences for when it goes too far.

As for meeting alone, it's a matter of definition. In fact, reread my earlier post: "with backup (for each of us) near but out of sight". Think about it a bit. Mr. Johnson isn't the boss. Mr. Johnson is the person with the authority to negotiate and agree. If he's corp, he's got a max limit. (If he's like a lot of corps, he may get a bonus based on how much he doesn't spend.)

If he's newby independent he may not HAVE a team, it's just him negotiating for an extraction. If so, he's one guy facing... your TEAM? who might be working for the people who do NOT want him to leave?

As I said, I would expect a corp Johnson to at least be able to pull together some magical/astral backup without issue. I don't think a newbie independent Johnson without the resources to vet a team before an operation is cut out for the business, to be honest. I'm not saying that online meetups never happen, or are even rare; I'm saying that depending in the circumstances, I think it's perfectly reasonable that a Johnson would call for an in-person meet.

If I'm good enough and connected enough to have a team to check out your team, I can do it before the meet.

There's a middle ground between "I can't be bothered to check you out at all" and "I will spend money to have every member of your team stalked by professionals before the meet". At least in my mind.

Every member of my security who's present is another person from whom you can pick up information I don't want to give. Two of us, your face and me, with our security outside a 200 or 500 meter perimeter after mutually clearing the meet site. No crowds that say "Look, a meeting". No need to get a bunch of people in and out. No need to watch a whole bunch of directions.

So yes, in my world one on one is fairly common. Especially if there are over-augmented gorillas with control issues around.

I could argue the point re: security teams, but I'd rather not. Your reasons are sound. I'm not talking about giant security teams on-site either; just the traditional bar/nightclub meeting.

[Midas]

Are you telling me that the Johnson is going to look at the team and say, "Nope, I don't want you and your team"? or rather, that it happens with any frequency in your world? Seriously, does that happen often in your world?

As for meeting alone, it's a matter of definition. In fact, reread my earlier post: "with backup (for each of us) near but out of sight". Think about it a bit. Mr. Johnson isn't the boss. Mr. Johnson is the person with the authority to negotiate and agree. If he's corp, he's got a max limit. (If he's like a lot of corps, he may get a bonus based on how much he doesn't spend.)

If he's newby independent he may not HAVE a team, it's just him negotiating for an extraction. If so, he's one guy facing... your TEAM? who might be working for the people who do NOT want him to leave?

If I'm good enough and connected enough to have a team to check out your team, I can do it before the meet. Every member of my security who's present is another person from whom you can pick up information I don't want to give. Two of us, your face and me, with our security outside a 200 or 500 meter perimeter after mutually clearing the meet site. No crowds that say "Look, a meeting". No need to get a bunch of people in and out. No need to watch a whole bunch of directions.

So yes, in my world one on one is fairly common. Especially if there are over-augmented gorillas with control issues around.

IRL business people will travel to the other side of the world at considerable expense to their companies to meet face-to-face with clients despite the fact a video conference would cost their companies nothing - perhaps it is just a hang-up of our species, but in terms of engendering trust face-to-face is the way to go. Same goes (at least on my table) for SR, although a few Johnsons might prefer meeting virtually the majority probably prefer a meat meet. As other posters have pointed out, technomancers could breach security of matrix meets (although with all that data floating out there, they would have to know EXACTLY what to look for), so meets in private rooms in nightclubs/bars/restaurants are probably also the best way for the Johnson to ensure anonymity. And yes, unless they are a newb or a one-off Johnson they WILL bring security.

As for this one-to-one with both sides security sweeping and securing a 200m or 500m perimeter and then hanging back, not exactly subtle is it? To the casual observer such precautions would scream of "oh, a secret meet, might be interesting to eavesdrop" should they have the skills and inclination.

[Kirk]

IRL business people will travel to the other side of the world at considerable expense to their companies to meet face-to-face with clients despite the fact a video conference would cost their companies nothing - perhaps it is just a hang-up of our species, but in terms of engendering trust face-to-face is the way to go. Same goes (at least on my table) for SR, although a few Johnsons might prefer meeting virtually the majority probably prefer a meat meet. As other posters have pointed out, technomancers could breach security of matrix meets (although with all that data floating out there, they would have to know EXACTLY what to look for), so meets in private rooms in nightclubs/bars/restaurants are probably also the best way for the Johnson to ensure anonymity. And yes, unless they are a newb or a one-off Johnson they WILL bring security.

As for this one-to-one with both sides security sweeping and securing a 200m or 500m perimeter and then hanging back, not exactly subtle is it? To the casual observer such precautions would scream of "oh, a secret meet, might be interesting to eavesdrop" should they have the skills and inclination.

Your table, of course, but are you honestly comparing current video conference tech to SR's matrix immersion and calling them "the same"?

Yes, as others have noted technomancers, and for that matter standard hackers, can breach security of matrix meets. Bluntly, given knowledge the meet is happening and the constraints of an attempt at deniability (shadows) all meets can have their security breached. Matrix meets are no more and no less secure for information. And they're a lot MORE secure for issues like leaving ritual-worthy traces and evidence, not to mention avoiding lurking assassins.

Finally, yep the full sweep is observable - depending on where the sweep is happening. Of course you have to see the sweep, recognize it's newsworthy, then figure out how to evade that security enough to get into the "private" meet.

That said, as I've stated earlier I actually prefer a different set of places for meat meets. Zoos, malls (access hallways), and amusement parks are favorites for me.

[Mayhem_2006]

Your table, of course, but are you honestly comparing current video conference tech to SR's matrix immersion and calling them "the same"?

No, he isn't, he's just pointing out that in spite of logic, people still spend thousands of dollars to meet face to face when any form of long distance communication would work just as well. Why would that change just because the communication methods have gotten more sophisticated?

[Kirk]

No, he isn't, he's just pointing out that in spite of logic, people still spend thousands of dollars to meet face to face when any form of long distance communication would work just as well. Why would that change just because the communication methods have gotten more sophisticated?

Because improving communications have been reducing the number of such thousand dollar meets.

Or, wait. You two weren't thinking that I'm saying ALL face to face meets will be gone, were you? No, just most -- just as today, which while face to face meets do indeed happen a lot more happen over the telephone and by teleconferencing.

[Ol' Scratch]

The reason face-to-face meets are so prevalent in Shadowrun is because of how ridiculously, stupidly, uberly powerful deckers/hackers are in the setting. There's no security measure they can't get around in the game, even against other hackers. Thus if you want to set up a conference call, you can almost guarantee someone is going to record it and use it against you, courtesy of the mysterious "pay data" they can find on any host/system/network/walkingdownMainStreet.

At least in face-to-face meetings you can scan for listening devices and have a significantly better chance of avoiding that.

[JonathanC]

Because improving communications have been reducing the number of such thousand dollar meets.

Or, wait. You two weren't thinking that I'm saying ALL face to face meets will be gone, were you? No, just most -- just as today, which while face to face meets do indeed happen a lot more happen over the telephone and by teleconferencing.

Are you seriously comparing the way people communicate with long-term business partners and industry peers to the way that a corporate black-ops coordinator would communicate with a gang of off-the-grid criminals that he's hiring for the first time? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[CanRay]

And some nice white noise generators, low-range signal jammers, and other such fun devices. It also cuts out the really bad band that's "playing" their latest "song".

[Kirk]

Are you seriously comparing the way people communicate with long-term business partners and industry peers to the way that a corporate black-ops coordinator would communicate with a gang of off-the-grid criminals that he's hiring for the first time? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

You're the one who brought the concept to the table. Something about people paying thousands of dollars to do face to face...

[JonathanC]

You're the one who brought the concept to the table. Something about people paying thousands of dollars to do face to face...

Um....no I'm not. Regardless, the guy who did still has a point. Regardless of the type of business they're in, people prefer to meet in person when it really counts.

[Paul]

I think there is room for both virtual and "press the flesh" style meetings in the game. In the end I think it all comes down to personal preference. In a more Pink Mohawk style game MR. Johnson might not flinch at the presence of heavy weaponry. (Nice Mortar you have there Kill Master!) In a more Noir game even a heavy pistol may be frowned upon. There's no wrong way, only the way that you have fun with at your table.

[Kirk]

Um....no I'm not. Regardless, the guy who did still has a point. Regardless of the type of business they're in, people prefer to meet in person when it really counts.

You're right as to not being you. I apologize.

Nonetheless, it is fascinating to see current life being valid when it supports one side of an argument and ridiculed when it supports the other side.

[JonathanC]

You're right as to not being you. I apologize.

Nonetheless, it is fascinating to see current life being valid when it supports one side of an argument and ridiculed when it supports the other side.

That's not exactly what's going on here.

He questioned the wisdom of extrapolating that improvements in technology would make in-person meeting rare because, historically, this has not been the case. People have continued meeting in-person after the invention of the telegraph, telephone, cell phone, and video conferencing. His argument isn't based on "current life"; it's based on the arc of human history. Specifically, that face-to-face meeting creates trust.

Once trust has been established, then conducting shadow business via the Matrix makes a lot more sense, unless one of the parties is extremely paranoid. Both in-person and Matrix meets have their ups and downs, but I really don't think the game's mechanics support the idea that Matrix meets are either more secure or less dangerous than in-person meets.

[Kirk]

That's not exactly what's going on here.

He questioned the wisdom of extrapolating that improvements in technology would make in-person meeting rare because, historically, this has not been the case. People have continued meeting in-person after the invention of the telegraph, telephone, cell phone, and video conferencing. His argument isn't based on "current life"; it's based on the arc of human history. Specifically, that face-to-face meeting creates trust.

Once trust has been established, then conducting shadow business via the Matrix makes a lot more sense, unless one of the parties is extremely paranoid. Both in-person and Matrix meets have their ups and downs, but I really don't think the game's mechanics support the idea that Matrix meets are either more secure or less dangerous than in-person meets.

Ah, but I didn't say ALL meetings would be electronic. I said a lot, and possibly most.

Just as today many, and arguably most, meetings are done electronically. I've got business people with whom I've dealt for some time that I've never met face to face, just as an example here.

As Paul notes there's room for either being dominant depending on your worldview. In mine, I crunched the numbers and came up with matrix meets being "safer" for the Johnson in most cases.

In fairness, I'm also biased by looking at the way matrix neuters most pornomancer tricks. Sure, direct increases to charisma (frex Increase attribute spell) work. But smells and kinetic reading and all those sorts of things go away. Though it's not stated as such, I can see a lot of corporate policies that require final decisions on people being made outside the reach of those people just to prevent tricks like this being effective.

Meat meets will happen. In my view of the world, matrix meets are the more common version when "professionals" are involved. ymwv.

[JonathanC]

Ah, but I didn't say ALL meetings would be electronic. I said a lot, and possibly most.

Just as today many, and arguably most, meetings are done electronically. I've got business people with whom I've dealt for some time that I've never met face to face, just as an example here.

Nobody has accused you of saying that "ALL" meetings would be electronically; the issue here is the assertion that "most" Shadowrun meets would be electronic. If we're talking about standard business meetings in 2070, then I'd be likely to agree with you.

Even today though...I work for a software company, and while we do a *ton* of conferencing with Skype and Go2Meeting, we send salespeople all over the place to talk with clients in person. Why? Because in-person demos are more meaningful than watching someone show you something on a computer screen from thousands of miles away.

As Paul notes there's room for either being dominant depending on your worldview. In mine, I crunched the numbers and came up with matrix meets being "safer" for the Johnson in most cases.

In fairness, I'm also biased by looking at the way matrix neuters most pornomancer tricks. Sure, direct increases to charisma (frex Increase attribute spell) work. But smells and kinetic reading and all those sorts of things go away. Though it's not stated as such, I can see a lot of corporate policies that require final decisions on people being made outside the reach of those people just to prevent tricks like this being effective.

Meat meets will happen. In my view of the world, matrix meets are the more common version when "professionals" are involved. ymwv.

It's almost nothing for a Johnson to have an internal air supply to neuter pheremones, if you're worried about that. I don't even think I'd bother; charisma isn't mind control, and if the Johnson is sent with a maximum of up-front cash on a credstick, there's nothing the players can do to squeeze more out of him.

Besides, if working via the Matrix provided the kind of guaranteed anonymity you're talking about, corps wouldn't need to use Johnsons at all, and they could probably stop hiring Shadowrunners for like 50% of their jobs.

[Kirk]

Nobody has accused you of saying that "ALL" meetings would be electronically; the issue here is the assertion that "most" Shadowrun meets would be electronic. If we're talking about standard business meetings in 2070, then I'd be likely to agree with you.

Even today though...I work for a software company, and while we do a *ton* of conferencing with Skype and Go2Meeting, we send salespeople all over the place to talk with clients in person. Why? Because in-person demos are more meaningful than watching someone show you something on a computer screen from thousands of miles away.



It's almost nothing for a Johnson to have an internal air supply to neuter pheremones, if you're worried about that. I don't even think I'd bother; charisma isn't mind control, and if the Johnson is sent with a maximum of up-front cash on a credstick, there's nothing the players can do to squeeze more out of him.

heh - I never even mentioned mind control or any of those sorts of things. No, not correcting you, indicating that it's another reason Mr. Johnson might want to make the deal remotely...

Besides, if working via the Matrix provided the kind of guaranteed anonymity you're talking about, corps wouldn't need to use Johnsons at all, and they could probably stop hiring Shadowrunners for like 50% of their jobs.

Not guaranteed anonymity; a decent degree of anonymity helped by a large obscurity factor for meetings. Meetings aren't jobs.