[X] My Assistant

[ShadowWalker]

When an Agent or AI is running with a node is it limited by the System of said node?
It says they both count for the Processor Limit, but I can't see anywhere in the book
where it says their rating is limited or not limited by the System.
example: a Rating 4 AI is in (running within) a node that is rating 3. Does it's rating get decreased to 3?
What about Agents under the same circumstances? As far as I can tell the programs they run would.

[Hamsnibit]

Response caps system rating which caps program rating.
AIs are handled as programs in this matter.

If the AI runs on a lower node then yes, it temporarily decreases in rating as long as the AI resides in the node.

[Udoshi]

Are you sure about that? I don't think the AI rating rules say anything about being lowered by system, given that they are comprised of mental stats and not hardware limitations.

[Hamsnibit]

Are you sure about that? I don't think the AI rating rules say anything about being lowered by system, given that they are comprised of mental stats and not hardware limitations.

Ah yes you are right, i looked it up again in runners companion p.89.

the rating of an AI derives from its rating which is the average of all four mental attributes.
Edge was the thing which is capped by the rating and nothing else. Therefore an AI in a node can always be r6 and the loaded (not the inherent) programs would not decrease with the node since the AI is a System in itself and the loaded programs run on the AI if i read the crunch correctly.

This should work for PC and NPC AIs as they are treated the same way in this matter.

[ShadowWalker]

I figured if an AI affected the response, it's considered a running program, same with an agent. So why wouldn't they be limited by the hardware it's running on?
You run something on different machines functionality can degrade because the hardware it's running on is limiting what it can do. The CPU/VRU might not support some functions the program wants to use and so some functionality needs to be dropped in order to function within the system. I don't see anything in the rules either for agents or for AI's that says their rating/attributes are downgraded based on the system. But at least for me logically if they have an affect on the system load one would think they would also be limited by the system's ability to support them.

[Udoshi]

Keep in mind that AI's Inherent Programs also have the Optimization and Ergonomic options built into them. I might be mistaken, but I'm not sure it says how much optimization(i think 6 is the max on that option anyway). But basically they don't care about System when using inherents due to that.

And since an AI rolls Skill+Program to do stuff on the matrix, its ai rating never really matters.

[ShadowWalker]

Keep in mind that AI's Inherent Programs also have the Optimization and Ergonomic options built into them. I might be mistaken, but I'm not sure it says how much optimization(i think 6 is the max on that option anyway). But basically they don't care about System when using inherents due to that.

And since an AI rolls Skill+Program to do stuff on the matrix, its ai rating never really matters.

It doesn't actual give a rating on the optimization, it just says that the max rating for the inherent program is double the AI's System attribute.
And yes, it's inherent programs don't affect the node degradation but the core AI does, as do any normal programs it runs. Plus a Node can only have up to it's System rating in Optimized programs running. Above that even optimized programs start to affect it.

[Neraph]

Why is the AI running from node to node? When you factor in that a R6 AI that makes a R3 node its home node can up the Response and System by 3 (making them 6) then it doesn't seem like much of a problem in the first place. An AI does not actually have to leave its node to hack into another system, so the point is moot in my opinion.

And also: why is the AI hacking? All AIs should have Pilot Origins and have their Home Nodes be drones anyways.

[ShadowWalker]

Why is the AI running from node to node? When you factor in that a R6 AI that makes a R3 node its home node can up the Response and System by 3 (making them 6) then it doesn't seem like much of a problem in the first place. An AI does not actually have to leave its node to hack into another system, so the point is moot in my opinion.

And also: why is the AI hacking? All AIs should have Pilot Origins and have their Home Nodes be drones anyways.

AI's can in fact be chased from their node, because it's about to be physically destroyed, or something similar.
There are reasons. So it's not moot, and it's not just AIs this could also affect Agents. Both should in some way be affected by the nodes hardware ratings.

[Aerospider]

Why is the AI running from node to node?

If the AI is needed behind wireless shielding or in a dead zone there's usually no other option.

And also: why is the AI hacking? All AIs should have Pilot Origins and have their Home Nodes be drones anyways.

It's widely viewed that the comparative vulnerability of a drone makes it an unsuitable choice for a home node.

[Udoshi]

It's widely viewed that the comparative vulnerability of a drone makes it an unsuitable choice for a home node.

That, and the fact that AI's can form connections to other nodes without physically being on them, like any other matrix user, means remote decking through a series of relays(your team) is hardly a bad choice.

Besides, the major advantage of piloting origin isn't the ability to have your home node be a drone. Its to run autosofts.

[Neraph]

True, but drones are hardly vulnerable. It's easy to get a Renraku Manservant to 15/15 armor (which technically functions as Hardened Armor), and that's without taking a Manservant for a ride in a Horseman of the Apocalypse.

But my main thing is what Udoshi pointed out: AIs do not need to actually move from node to node - they can make connections to other nodes like any other user. Combine that with a Satellite Link running R6 ECCM and nothing in the game can jam your signal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

True, but drones are hardly vulnerable. It's easy to get a Renraku Manservant to 15/15 armor (which technically functions as Hardened Armor), and that's without taking a Manservant for a ride in a Horseman of the Apocalypse.

But my main thing is what Udoshi pointed out: AIs do not need to actually move from node to node - they can make connections to other nodes like any other user. Combine that with a Satellite Link running R6 ECCM and nothing in the game can jam your signal.

Not necessarily True. Jamming-on-the Fly can do it, as it is an opposed test (EW+Signal vs. EW+Signal with ECCM acting as positive modifier to the pool). And can be surprisingly effective.

[Udoshi]

Jamming on the Fly is what makes jammers really good. Especially because jammers themselves can go to rating 10. Still, its dissappointing the only rules for jamming in the main book were the 'turn it on and hope their signal is low enough to autojam'.

Still, AI's are really hard to jam, as they resist with Electronic Warfare + Signal(boosted because of AI) + Eccm(you could take this as an Inherent if you really wanted), and the jammer only rolls EW+Signal. 3 things in a dice pool generally top out 2.

The thing I particularly like about Jamming on the Fly is that it opens up the possibility to jam with drone Sensors, because they have Signal. Its not very useful, but provides a very roundabout(in the rule sense) way of shutting down odd sensor types, like ultrasound, if you don't have your usual tools.

[ShadowWalker]

If an AI has ECCM as an inherent program, then it could potentially get ECCM up to 14. Rating 7 AI mind you, which would be extremly expensive on the karma.
The stupid way they have AIs Inherent programs setup to start with, being limited to your rating at creation. With no option to buy more means who would want to start without being rating 6.
Personally I think allowing them to buy a new inherent program at a cost of 6 karma seems reasonable, as long as they have a rating greater than the total number of inherent programs.
6 coming from 2 for the program and 2 for each program option.

Back to the original question. If for whatever reason an AI, Agent or IC, ends up in a node that has a system rating less than their own rating does their rating and attributes associated with that rating decrease?
A System program can't have a rating greater than the response. Matrix programs can't have a rating greater than the System. (SR4A pg 222)
Agents count towards processor limit (SR4A pg 234)

Something interesting I just found on pg 234 related to agents and I would expect IC:

Agents use the Response attribute of the node on which they are running; this means that the attributes of an agent operating independently may vary as it moves from node to node.

Just above that paragraph is stated that the Pilot attribute acts as the Agents System rating. Sounds like Agents get dropped to the Response of the node they are running in.

For AIs I came across the following in UW pg 166

Like agents, they use the Response and Signal attributes of whatever node in which they happen to be. Their Firewall and System attributes are based on their rating.

So they also use Response from the node, which only makes sense. Other than saying, "Like agents", there is no comment about their attributes changing. I Still think it would since System can't be higher than the Response.

[Neraph]

Not necessarily True. Jamming-on-the Fly can do it, as it is an opposed test (EW+Signal vs. EW+Signal with ECCM acting as positive modifier to the pool). And can be surprisingly effective.

Granted, but the likelihood of a EW + Signal beating EW + 14 is slim.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Granted, but the likelihood of a EW + Signal beating EW + 14 is slim.

Depends upon who you are... I would not make that bet against Nations or High Level Megacorps.
Though I do think that Jamming should reduce rating, rather than being binary. *shrug*

[ShadowWalker]

yes yes yes, but what are your thoughts on an AI's, Agent's or IC's Rating and/or System, or any of the other attributes being affected by Response?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

yes yes yes, but what are your thoughts on an AI's, Agent's or IC's Rating and/or System, or any of the other attributes being affected by Response?

IC, Agents's and AI's are all have their stats restricted by those of the Node they are On. Their ratings do not actually change, but they can only operate at the capacity of the node that they are currently occupying.

Response limits System, as it always has...
System limits program ratings...

[Neraph]

IC, Agents's and AI's are all have their stats restricted by those of the Node they are On. Their ratings do not actually change, but they can only operate at the capacity of the node that they are currently occupying.

Response limits System, as it always has...
System limits program ratings...

Exactly, which is why I made my point. The AI does not need to actually move into another node to hack it. You can remain in your Home Node and create an icon in the other nodes and hack just fine.

Also, on Drone Bodies: I've mentioned before that you do not need to actually have an awsome drone, or even a single drone for that matter. My current favorite is ten Kanmushi with Ruthenium Polymers, Signal Masking, and a Satellite Link all clustered together serving as your home node. Then you take these 10 really difficult to detect drones and spread them out in a web pattern over the city. All 10 of these drones need to be destroyed at the exact same time in order to kill the AI. Oh, and you're not limited to just using 10 - with how cheap these are you can readily afford many of them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Exactly, which is why I made my point. The AI does not need to actually move into another node to hack it. You can remain in your Home Node and create an icon in the other nodes and hack just fine.

Also, on Drone Bodies: I've mentioned before that you do not need to actually have an awsome drone, or even a single drone for that matter. My current favorite is ten Kanmushi with Ruthenium Polymers, Signal Masking, and a Satellite Link all clustered together serving as your home node. Then you take these 10 really difficult to detect drones and spread them out in a web pattern over the city. All 10 of these drones need to be destroyed at the exact same time in order to kill the AI. Oh, and you're not limited to just using 10 - with how cheap these are you can readily afford many of them.

See, I would not allow that collection of Drones to be a clustered node, however. Just me, I guess. It is RAW, I think, to allow disaprate, dislocated, pieces to be linked as such, but I would never allow that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

See, I would not allow that collection of Drones to be a clustered node, however. Just me, I guess. It is RAW, I think, to allow disaprate, dislocated, pieces to be linked as such, but I would never allow that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Simply by GM fiat do most of the things I propose not work. It is perfectly legal and the logical conclusion for an AI that wishes to survive.

[ShadowWalker]

The thing is a cluster although it may look like a single node it isn't. I wouldn't allow a cluster of individual nodes be a home node.
I would however allow a home node be part of a cluster. I don't think it's RAW that a cluster be allowed as a home node.
Just the description of how you calculate the attributes makes it sound too much like something that couldn't be a home node.
It's system and firewall are the lowest system and firewall for the devices used, it's response is the average of all responses.
No mention of signal, but I'm thinking highest would be okay, although maybe highest +1 depending on how many devices make up
the cluster.
Plus what happens to the AI if the Clustering is broken up. It's home no longer exists, and if the AI was in the cluster at the time of the
nodes destruction it's death. Which could be as simple as the cluster being unclustered.

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed. Any application of the clustering rules is a mess, even without getting AI into it. The drones are a particularly good example.

[Tech_Rat]

For agents and IC, this is how it works. They get loaded on to the system. AI's are more like your Decker/Hacker or Technomancer. They choose their home node[usually, if not always, with wicked stats], and proxy out, then hack. They are still confined to the upper limit of their system[though they do optimize the hardware], but that doesn't mean they are limited to the system they're hacking.


Agents, IC, etc: Limited by current node

Hackers/Deckers: Limited by their hardware

Technomancers/AI's/Sprites: Limited by Living Persona/Resonance rating/home node.

Home node is not necessarily the node they are currently on.

I should really go to bed. Thoughts are losing cohesiveness...