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phlapjack77
post Mar 12 2012, 06:46 AM
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Will do - I'll add the instructions to my latest IC post...

I shouldn't bring this up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) - but there's always a minimum drain to summoning of 2. So even if the spirit doesn't get any hits on the resistance roll, 2 drain still have to be soaked.
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Tecumseh
post Mar 12 2012, 07:37 AM
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Can you give me a page number? I was looking around the book for that but I couldn't find anything other than "double the spirit's successes". I thought I remembered something about how there will always be drain to resist, but I couldn't find it and wondered if it only applied to spells.

To be clear on the spirit, you're requesting it to use the Guard power (one service), and then just asking it to stay close?
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phlapjack77
post Mar 12 2012, 07:56 AM
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SR4A, pg 188:
Summoning Drain
The Drain Value for Summoning is equal to twice the hits (not net hits) generated by the spirit on the Opposed Summoning Test (minimum 2 DV).

I could be misinterpreting what this is saying, not sure. But I think it's saying there's a mimumum drain of 2, no matter what the spirit rolls.

About the spirit, yeah, asking it to use the Guard power. Also asking it to kind of "be on the lookout", like actively patrolling near us for danger. I'm cool with that being a 2nd service.
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pbangarth
post Mar 13 2012, 04:37 AM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 12 2012, 02:56 AM) *
SR4A, pg 188:
Summoning Drain
The Drain Value for Summoning is equal to twice the hits (not net hits) generated by the spirit on the Opposed Summoning Test (minimum 2 DV).

I could be misinterpreting what this is saying, not sure. But I think it's saying there's a mimumum drain of 2, no matter what the spirit rolls.

About the spirit, yeah, asking it to use the Guard power. Also asking it to kind of "be on the lookout", like actively patrolling near us for danger. I'm cool with that being a 2nd service.

QUOTE (SR4A page 188)
Summoning Drain
The Drain Value for Summoning is equal to twice the hits (not net
hits) generated by the spirit on the Opposed Summoning Test (minimum
2 DV). This applies whether or not the magician generated any
net hits in the Summoning Test
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Tecumseh
post Mar 13 2012, 05:27 AM
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Thanks. I think the confusion is that I have a PDF copy of SR4A but my hardcover copy isn't the anniversary edition. The original SR4 doesn't include the line about minimum drain for summoning.

Having the spirit patrolling the area doesn't qualify as a service until it's actually required to do something, like fight or defend.
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phlapjack77
post Mar 13 2012, 06:07 AM
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Interesting that that's one of the changes from 4 -> 4A. It seems kind of silly: 2DV is so easy to soak, it's a very very unlucky roll that doesn't resist that.

The change where sending spirits off on remote services still counts against your max summonable spirits - THAT was a good change (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tecumseh
post Mar 16 2012, 07:54 AM
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Hmm, what to do, what to do. Eenie, meenie, miney, mo...
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AtroposReborn
post Mar 17 2012, 08:57 AM
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The anticipation is killing someone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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pbangarth
post Mar 18 2012, 02:27 AM
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In response to Ellesar's question, Stogie will consider:

INT 5 + ( I guess this one is the best, though he has others that are higher rated) Hunting Knowledge Skill 3 = 8 dice ==> 4 HITS ! Holy shit!
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phlapjack77
post Mar 18 2012, 03:12 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 18 2012, 10:27 AM) *
In response to Ellesar's question, Stogie will consider:

INT 5 + ( I guess this one is the best, though he has others that are higher rated) Hunting Knowledge Skill 3 = 8 dice ==> 4 HITS ! Holy shit!

Nice!


QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 18 2012, 10:29 AM) *
Stogie considers Ellesar's question. Jake checks to the left. Stogie checks to the right. Astral perception and quivering, wet nose are at full alert.

Jake has astral perception ?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Tecumseh
post Mar 18 2012, 03:55 AM
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Sorry for the holdup, gents; the delay is entirely my fault. I've been debating how to proceed and reading up on potentially relevant rules. (Severe wounds and heavy damage from Augmentation, p.120-121, if you want to follow along at home.) I'll try to get something more substantial up within the next 24 hours. Feel free to continue posting in the meanwhile.

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phlapjack77
post Mar 18 2012, 04:20 AM
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QUOTE (Tecumseh @ Mar 18 2012, 11:55 AM) *
Sorry for the holdup, gents; the delay is entirely my fault. I've been debating how to proceed and reading up on potentially relevant rules. (Severe wounds and heavy damage from Augmentation, p.120-121, if you want to follow along at home.) I'll try to get something more substantial up within the next 24 hours. Feel free to continue posting in the meanwhile.

Now I'm kind of worried (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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pbangarth
post Mar 19 2012, 03:41 AM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 17 2012, 10:12 PM) *
Jake has astral perception ?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, the grammar could have been clearer. No, It's Stogie's Astral Perception.
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phlapjack77
post Mar 19 2012, 03:45 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 19 2012, 11:41 AM) *
Yeah, the grammar could have been clearer. No, It's Stogie's Astral Perception.

Sorry about that, I wasn't trying to be a grammar nazi. Just being stupid and misinterpreting that Stogie has a quivering, wet nose on purpose (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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pbangarth
post Mar 19 2012, 03:47 AM
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The sense sharing that goes on between Stogie and Jake is all one way. Stogie can sense through Jake, but not the other way around. Otherwise, Jake could have astral perception.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, Stogie could Endow Jake with Astral Perception. Hmmm... likely have to work on the poor dog for a while before he would handle that with any kind of comfort.
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phlapjack77
post Mar 19 2012, 04:06 AM
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Tecumseh, are there available birds or other tree dwellers in the area? Using an Observe in Detail to look up
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Tecumseh
post Mar 19 2012, 08:43 AM
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Oh hell, this is complex; what have I gotten myself into? Perception rolls for multiple participants, including Jake and a spirit, each with his own bonuses and specializations, to which there are negative modifiers applied, including the opposition's attempt to avoid detection, the cumulative effect of which could mean that a secondary sense actually has more dice, on top of which Stogie and Smohalla have Assensing, with its own list of positive and negative modifiers...

Add to this the rules for Surprise Tests, which - quite honestly - baffle me even while I'm reading them. I might as well turn to Heart of Darkness for clarity and guidance on the situation. I don't promise that I've done everything 100% correctly, but I've done my best and I think that any errors - such as they are - should equally affect both sides and thus cancel each other out.

Here's how it plays out:

Phlapjack, here is Smohalla's search for birds, if you want to know.

Pbangarth, the dice love you. Every time I put "Stogie" in the Character Name box on Invisible Castle, I get a bajillion hits. I'm starting to think you hacked the system. Here's your assensing roll: 5 HITS

Nobody else beat the critter's attempts to stay hidden. The result is an ambush/surprise test (p. 165, SR4A), with Stogie receiving a +3 bonus for being alerted in advance. If I'm reading the rules correctly, there are actually two initiative checks: the first to determine who surprises whom, the second to determine actual initiative order. For the first roll, nobody beat the ambushers so you're all surprised. See below:

Ambusher #1: 6 HITS
Ambusher #2: 6 HITS
Stogie: 3 HITS
Beast Spirit: 4 HITS
Ellesar: 2 HITS
Smohalla: 3 HITS
Jake: 3 HITS

The rule says "a character who is surprised may not directly act toward or react to characters who have surprised him." Now I can make the second round of initiative rolls but even if you have higher initiative than the ambushers you won't be able to do anything other than spend free actions to clear your throat and simple actions to pick your nose. As such, I'm going to rule that the ambushers delay their actions until the end of the first initiative pass and act then. The spirits will their second IP (oh geez, the watchers technically get three), after which we'll roll initiative for the second combat turn and proceed as normal. Did that make sense? I've been spending ages trying to think this through.

First things first, I need everyone to make a Willpower roll. I'm debating whether or not to allow Phlapjack to roll counterspelling. On one hand, he did declare it, but on the other he's breaking line-of-sight to search the trees for birds and the hunter was waiting for exactly that. But counterspelling is a free action and Observe in Detail is a simple action, so Smohalla should be able to do them both during his turn without being interrupted, but how can he look in all directions at once? And then under Counterspelling it says that it always applies to the magician himself unless he's surprised, but does this really count as surprise because you knew something was there you just weren't sure which direction ... I've spent the last three hours debating things like this.

Phlapjack, right now I'm going to say roll counterspelling for the group. Roll it separately from your Willpower roll so that we know how many hits to apply to the other character's test results. What it comes down to is that this is supposed to be a warmup, not the main event, so I'm not going to get too strict here. But I reserve the right to do so later!

It's 1:40am for me now so I need to post this and get some sleep. I'll try to put up an IC post tomorrow. Once we get some rolls in place, we'll have the spirits bang on each other during the second initiative pass. Sound good? Let me know if you have thoughts or questions.



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phlapjack77
post Mar 19 2012, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE (Tecumseh @ Mar 19 2012, 04:43 PM) *
<snip>
Phlapjack, right now I'm going to say roll counterspelling for the group. Roll it separately from your Willpower roll so that we know how many hits to apply to the other character's test results. What it comes down to is that this is supposed to be a warmup, not the main event, so I'm not going to get too strict here. But I reserve the right to do so later!

Head...spinning...

Thanks for the bird-watching roll. I was going to try to have Smohalla borrow some bird senses to see if they could spot our attacker, but as the proverbial shit has hit the proverbial fan, he will abandon that course of action (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

About the mage and counterspelling and surprise - I would think that if the mage has declared counterspelling (Active), the mage can counterspell (including himself) whether or not they are surprised (seemingly backed up by pg 185 and "jamming" the mana). If no counterspelling has been declared (Passive), the mage can still use counterspelling to protect themself, unless surprised.

Counterspelling roll for group (using Edge before the roll) : 1 HIT + 2 HITS a little better
Including Willpower for Smohalla: 1 HIT

*grumble* pbangarth is hogging all the good rolls!
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Tecumseh
post Mar 19 2012, 11:54 PM
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The rules are less than clear but I believe you get to add your Magic dice to the Counterspelling roll. I know the book just says "Counterspelling dice" but I can't think of any instance where you roll skill dice alone. All skill tests are paired with an attribute roll, unless it's an odd situation where you pair it with something else (like when you roll Data Search + Browse). Besides, you add your Magic dice to dispel a sustained spell, and I don't know why a freshly cast spell would be harder to counter/defend against than an already established spell.

Go ahead and add the extra dice, or I can do it if you like (i.e. if you think I'm luckier). We can try it with and without Stogie's name in the Character Name box too, just to see what the system thinks.
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phlapjack77
post Mar 20 2012, 12:32 AM
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Cool - I'll add the Magic roll above
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pbangarth
post Mar 20 2012, 03:53 AM
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QUOTE (Tecumseh @ Mar 19 2012, 04:43 AM) *
Here's how it plays out:

Phlapjack, here is Smohalla's search for birds, if you want to know.

Pbangarth, the dice love you. Every time I put "Stogie" in the Character Name box on Invisible Castle, I get a bajillion hits. I'm starting to think you hacked the system.


Mwaaahahahaaaa!

QUOTE (Tecumseh @ Mar 19 2012, 07:54 PM) *
The rules are less than clear but I believe you get to add your Magic dice to the Counterspelling roll. I know the book just says "Counterspelling dice" but I can't think of any instance where you roll skill dice alone. All skill tests are paired with an attribute roll, unless it's an odd situation where you pair it with something else (like when you roll Data Search + Browse). Besides, you add your Magic dice to dispel a sustained spell, and I don't know why a freshly cast spell would be harder to counter/defend against than an already established spell.

Go ahead and add the extra dice, or I can do it if you like (i.e. if you think I'm luckier). We can try it with and without Stogie's name in the Character Name box too, just to see what the system thinks.

It isn't actually Skill dice alone, as the Counterspelling dice are in effect added to the Attribute in question, so it still works out to Attribute + Skill. Furthermore, the text for Counterspelling a sustained spell explicitly tells us to use Counterspelling + Magic, which makes sense as in this case there is no other Attribute involved and it is an Opposed Test vs. the spell's Force and the Magic of the opponent. Using both Magic and Counterspelling will make spell defense really powerful for whoever has it.

Here is Stogie's WIL roll: WIL 4 ==> 2 HITS

Here is Jake's WIL roll: WIL 3 ==> 2 HITS

Mwaaaahahahaaa!

[Fuck, I'm gonna pay for this later!]

EDIT: By the way, team, we did notice that there are TWO ambushers, right?
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phlapjack77
post Mar 20 2012, 05:22 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 20 2012, 11:53 AM) *
Using both Magic and Counterspelling will make spell defense really powerful for whoever has it.

Let's hope that holds true even with my bad rolls (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tecumseh
post Mar 20 2012, 06:34 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 19 2012, 07:53 PM) *
It isn't actually Skill dice alone, as the Counterspelling dice are in effect added to the Attribute in question, so it still works out to Attribute + Skill. Furthermore, the text for Counterspelling a sustained spell explicitly tells us to use Counterspelling + Magic, which makes sense as in this case there is no other Attribute involved and it is an Opposed Test vs. the spell's Force and the Magic of the opponent. Using both Magic and Counterspelling will make spell defense really powerful for whoever has it.


I acknowledge the point and had the same thoughts about what the book was explicitly saying versus what I was reading between the lines, but I can't think of any other precedent for taking one person's skill and adding it to another person's attribute. The way I've played it in my table top games is for spell resistance rolls to be 1) the defender's Willpower + 2) the Magic attribute of counterspeller + 3) their Counterspelling skill. Yes, it often means that those on the defense are often rolling as many dice as the spellcaster, but I think I prefer it that way. Otherwise spellcasters just mow down everyone in their path. And besides, it's logical for Magic rating of the defending magician be relevant. Skill-level aside, it makes sense for a Magic 6 professional to more effective at defending his companions that a Magic 3 wizkid.

QUOTE
EDIT: By the way, team, we did notice that there are TWO ambushers, right?

Well Stogie notices that there are two ambushers. The other characters will figure it out soon enough. I'll post something to that effect when I find a few moments.

QUOTE
Cool - I'll add the Magic roll above

Smohalla, you have a power focus, so one more dice. Third time's the charm, right?
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phlapjack77
post Mar 20 2012, 06:37 AM
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QUOTE (Tecumseh @ Mar 20 2012, 02:34 PM) *
Smohalla, you have a power focus, so one more dice. Third time's the charm, right?

Well, I think I finally did something right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Power Focus specifically says it doesn't add dice to Counterspelling (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Tecumseh
post Mar 20 2012, 06:58 AM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 19 2012, 10:37 PM) *
Well, I think I finally did something right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Power Focus specifically says it doesn't add dice to Counterspelling (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Damnit, that rule completely undermines my previous post. The book does say, "A power focus adds its Force to all tests in which the magicianís Magic is included," and then specifically excludes counterspelling as a spell is being cast.

I have to brew on this a bit. Maybe the alternate reading makes sense, since a magician has to soak drain if he dispels an sustained spell, but not if he counterspells a spell as it is cast. Or maybe I'll add to the growing list of Shadowrun rules that don't make any sense to me and rewrite my own version. In either case, what we've rolled to this point will stand.
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