Full Immersion Hacker, Is this viable? Options

[Fortinbras]

Mechs are just walker drones with mechanical arms and rigger cocoons.

[3278]

The potential fly in the ointment of a Full immersion Hacker is the need to be in mutual signal range and/or have an subscription onto a node to hack it (SR4A 235). This means unless the node gives out Public Access Account or you can get your teammates to get you a login, you have to be in mutual signal range.

This is not how I have interpreted the process. Are you saying that direct mutual signal range can be required to hack a node, simply by disabling public accounts? Is this how other people run hackers in SR4, that in order to hack a node, you must be in mutual signal range of it, unless you already have a login?

Assuming a retrans/repeater unit works by putting things that wouldn't normally be into mutual signal range (and don't just act like any other device with a high signal rating)...

See, and it's my read of retrans units that they work exactly like any other device with a high Signal rating. What implication is there that they'd be different?

Overall, it really comes down to how common wifi-blocking paint and the like are.

Except that Signal-blocking and disrupting technologies [jammers, for another example] all have countermeasures in Shadowrun. Wi-fi blocking paint isn't indestructible, right?

[Fortinbras]

This is not how I have interpreted the process. Are you saying that direct mutual signal range can be required to hack a node, simply by disabling public accounts? Is this how other people run hackers in SR4, that in order to hack a node, you must be in mutual signal range of it, unless you already have a login?

Or the node you are in needs mutual signal range. One can always disable a device's MSP, but most people don't do that for obvious reasons. But if you do, then you need a way to have the two devices talking to each other and if one of those devices isn't hooked up to the Matrix, then it needs to be within mutual signal range of the thing that is trying to hack it.
Considering how many places runner go that have no Matrix access(if it did, wouldn't the Johnson just hack the info remotely) this should be taken under advisement.
One way to do this is to piggy back off of another player's commlink or to have another player carry around a hacker's high Signal commlink while the fully immersed hacker uses a Sat link to connect to it.
This, of course, means that everything the hacker does, like download sensitive info, is being shot through the air where any old schmuck can Decrypt and just pick it out of the clear blue sky like an old lady with a police scanner. A massive Signal being broadcast around the Earth is going to be noticed by a person or two.

Except that Signal-blocking and disrupting technologies [jammers, for another example] all have countermeasures in Shadowrun. Wi-fi blocking paint isn't indestructible, right?

The only jamming worth mentioning is jamming of the fly and faraday cages. Every jammer in the game is beyond worthless because they only go up to ten, something that is irrelevant if every hacker is going to have a Signal + ECCM of 11, which most do.
While it is not mentioned in any of the source books, certain published adventures, like Bad Moon Rising in the East, have a president that some Wi-Fi paper and Static Zones can lessen a Signal without killing it entirely, this has yet to be represented in any core material.
I maintain that if it's in an adventure that happened in the Shadowrun universe, it is, therefore, part of RAW; but I can see the other side of the argument.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This, of course, means that everything the hacker does, like download sensitive info, is being shot through the air where any old schmuck can Decrypt and just pick it out of the clear blue sky like an old lady with a police scanner. A massive Signal being broadcast around the Earth is going to be noticed by a person or two.

I don't think that a satellite signal is going to be all that immediately noticeable buried amongst the hundreds of millions, if not billions, of signals already flying through the Atmosphere (How many people already use satellite for TV or Radio today? That number is just going to get bigger in the 2070's). And these are just the Satellite Signals. Add in the rest of the signals that are also there and you are no more noticeable than any other signal.

[Hida Tsuzua]

This is not how I have interpreted the process. Are you saying that direct mutual signal range can be required to hack a node, simply by disabling public accounts? Is this how other people run hackers in SR4, that in order to hack a node, you must be in mutual signal range of it, unless you already have a login?

Basically I'm looking at this passage:

In order to hack a node, you must either be within mutual Signal range of the target node’s
device or have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix.

That means that either you need to be mutual Signal range or have a subscription to the node. You need an account to subscribe to a node as part of the Log On action (SR4A 224). Now a lot of nodes just gives anyone who asks a public account and that's good enough to start hacking. However if the node doesn't give out public accounts like when it's in passive* mode, you either need a real login to login and then start hacking or you have to be in mutual signal range.

I doubt most GMs even know about this requirement much less use it, but it's there.

*- It never explicitly says that passive nodes don't give out public accounts. However, I am basing this opinion on the lines "A PAN in Passive mode can be “seen” by other devices, but cannot be accessed by them without your approval" and "This is the default mode for peripheral nodes and nexi—in the latter case access approval is required from a sysop or ensured by using an established account (see Access Accounts, p. 225)" (SR4A 223) assuming that access in this case refers to logging on.

See, and it's my read of retrans units that they work exactly like any other device with a high Signal rating. What implication is there that they'd be different?

It's the line from Arsenal 142, "In other words, a retrans unit is designed to sit between two nodes that would normally be out of Signal range
with each other, creating a link to chain them together" refers to them directly linking the nodes directly and not though the normal matrix auto-routing. However, it's a shaky reading. I think there was a thread discussing it that I might have even posted in, but I can't find it.

Regardless of my opinion then, I do think it just works like a normal high Signal device. However that makes the retrans unit fairly useless. Just buy a commlink with satellite uplink. You get a higher Signal rating at a cheaper price.

Except that Signal-blocking and disrupting technologies [jammers, for another example] all have countermeasures in Shadowrun. Wi-fi blocking paint isn't indestructible, right?

Normal jamming isn't that hard to fight. Jamming on the Fly can take you out of the game, but it could happen that even if you were just right there. Wi-fi blocking paint actually isn't that bad to deal with now that I look at it. ECCM works on it just fine. With ECCM 6 running on a Signal 5 commlink, that basically makes you immune to wi-fi blocking paint (and normal jammers) since they only go up to 10.

[Ascalaphus]

Huh. That's the first well-reasoned argument I've seen for the need for mutual signal range. Stealthy little rule, that.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Huh. That's the first well-reasoned argument I've seen for the need for mutual signal range. Stealthy little rule, that.

I didn't discover it until I attempted to write a coherent example heavy RAW guide to how the matrix works. I had to stop because it was literally making me sick (don't get me started on slaving and subscription slots, it's odd).

[3278]

Considering how many places runner go that have no Matrix access(if it did, wouldn't the Johnson just hack the info remotely) this should be taken under advisement.

Right, but that just means you have to get Matrix access to it, as it were, and the full immersion hacker has access from wherever he is. Of course, the Matrix needn't be involved, either: I could be at one end of a relay of wireless transceivers and you at the other, and we have access to each other. That's how the mesh network of the Matrix works. But Hida Tsuzua is saying something I've never heard anyone say before, and that's that a node can be set up such that the only way to hack it is to be in direct mutual Signal range with it, with no intermediary relay.

One way to do this is to piggy back off of another player's commlink or to have another player carry around a hacker's high Signal commlink while the fully immersed hacker uses a Sat link to connect to it.

Well, you've got to get Signal to the other player's commlink somehow, right? And why does the "hacker's high Signal commlink" need to be high-signal, if it's being taken directly to the target network? I guess I'm not clear on the situations in which these actions would be necessary.

[CanRay]

Hardwired connection to multiple satlinks with detonation areas along the cables to deter snoops from following it to your place. Bounce the signal off a few satellites just for fun.

Blimp Drones with Retransmission Systems that are in various parts of the world ready and waiting for your signal (You can also sell advertisement time on them to make a bit more profit!).

Laser-Link to the Blimp Drone from the entrance of where ever your physical team it with a giant spool of datacable.

Lament that it can't be Miller Time with the rest of the group when the job is done.

[3278]

That means that either you need to be mutual Signal range or have a subscription to the node. You need an account to subscribe to a node as part of the Log On action (SR4A 224). Now a lot of nodes just gives anyone who asks a public account and that's good enough to start hacking. However if the node doesn't give out public accounts like when it's in passive* mode, you either need a real login to login and then start hacking or you have to be in mutual signal range.

This is definitely an interesting interpretation. I don't find any fault with it, per se, although I'm not certain I agree with it. Why do you suppose, from a functional perspective, this would be? Why, on an ad hoc wireless mesh network, would being within direct Signal range be different - and only when hacking - than connecting through the mesh?

Wouldn't this mean that basically every hacker in the world would have to be an intrusion specialist? That no hacking could ever really be done by telepresence, because all the good stuff is on nodes with Public accounts turned off? This just doesn't seem like how hacking works in SR.

It's the line from Arsenal 142, "In other words, a retrans unit is designed to sit between two nodes that would normally be out of Signal range
with each other, creating a link to chain them together" refers to them directly linking the nodes directly and not though the normal matrix auto-routing. However, it's a shaky reading. I think there was a thread discussing it that I might have even posted in, but I can't find it.

Well, I don't find fault with that interpretation. I share it! And this could be done with any Matrix device [so long as you controlled the routing table on it], so I share your interpretation that Retrans Units don't make much sense, when every wireless Matrix device in Shadowrun is a retrans unit: that's how a mesh works.

[3278]

Blimp Drones with Retransmission Systems that are in various parts of the world ready and waiting for your signal (You can also sell advertisement time on them to make a bit more profit!).

Nice. And the flying billboard makes a nice cover for why you have a floating gasbag parked somewhere for weeks at a time. I'm a big fan of hackers making side-money by doing things that actually provide cover for the team.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is definitely an interesting interpretation. I don't find any fault with it, per se, although I'm not certain I agree with it. Why do you suppose, from a functional perspective, this would be? Why, on an ad hoc wireless mesh network, would being within direct Signal range be different - and only when hacking - than connecting through the mesh?

Wouldn't this mean that basically every hacker in the world would have to be an intrusion specialist? That no hacking could ever really be done by telepresence, because all the good stuff is on nodes with Public accounts turned off? This just doesn't seem like how hacking works in SR.


Well, I don't find fault with that interpretation. I share it! And this could be done with any Matrix device [so long as you controlled the routing table on it], so I share your interpretation that Retrans Units don't make much sense, when every wireless Matrix device in Shadowrun is a retrans unit: that's how a mesh works.

The retrans Unit is for those places that DO NOT HAVE a Mesh Network. They connect the Mesh to a remote location that is outside of the Mesh.

[Paul]

Having been at the receiving end of a game or two where some pretty absurd precautions about data were taken I've begun to think that often as not Shadowrun has this weird discombobulated and often contradictory approach to the wireless network, and really the Matrix.

I wish I knew an easy fix-but then if I did I'd be a lot more popular.

[3278]

The retrans Unit is for those places that DO NOT HAVE a Mesh Network. They connect the Mesh to a remote location that is outside of the Mesh.

Absolutely, but for example, why would you put a Retrans Unit with a Signal of 6 on a drone with a Signal of 6: the drone's transceiver will automatically connect any two signals that are in range of its Signal, anyway, right? Isn't the Retrans Unit completely redundant?

[Ol' Scratch]

Having been at the receiving end of a game or two where some pretty absurd precautions about data were taken I've begun to think that often as not Shadowrun has this weird discombobulated and often contradictory approach to the wireless network, and really the Matrix.

I wish I knew an easy fix-but then if I did I'd be a lot more popular.

I've always hated Shadowrun's rules for the Matrix. Not once have they been as relatively simple or streamlined as the rest of the game. I can't even begin to understand why that's the case. I think game designers develop some bizarre form of Tourette's Syndrome or something and just start spewing out random, convoluted, confusing, nonsensical rules.

As it stands, I don't know how the Sixth World functions at all considering how many hackers are out there and how painfully easy they get past the security on even the most secure systems.

[Daylen]

I've always hated Shadowrun's rules for the Matrix. Not once have they been as relatively simple or streamlined as the rest of the game. I can't even begin to understand why that's the case. I think game designers develop some bizarre form of Tourette's Syndrome or something and just start spewing out random, convoluted, confusing, nonsensical rules.

As it stands, I don't know how the Sixth World functions at all considering how many hackers are out there and how painfully easy they get past the security on even the most secure systems.

That's not as common as you might think. Most of the stuff that gets hacked are public websites, these are not very secure.

[Paul]

That's not as common as you might think. Most of the stuff that gets hacked are public websites, these are not very secure.

But frankly even secure sites aren't that secure. I hate to use a real world analogy to argue an In Game idea, and I know this horse has been beat to death, drug through a mile of broken glass, resurrected a few times, offed a couple more-but since the people designing the game basically jumped off from a combination of stuff that already existed in games, stuff they saw in movies and read on tech websites I feel confident in saying that the execution isn't all that different from what we have today.

Except by RAW it's pretty easy to change that balance. I've significantly reduced the role of the wireless matrix in my game, because as it exists it's worse than crap. It's a game stopper. By which I mean we need to stop, and open frickin' books to look up confusing rules. And I mean books, because as usual the useful ones are spread all over the frickin' place.

So for me it's easier to simply make it a non-issue rather than rewriting all of the rules. I'd like it to make sense, and be as easy as the combat system is for me to run-but it's not. And I can see where all too often the temptation to guard everything with "farady" cages, etc...but frankly all that means is the people of the 6th world don't really trust the wireless matrix. ("If it's not good enough for my boos why would I use it for my goodies?" I could see the endless deluge of 60 minutes style exposes.)

In the end it's broken, and distracting. It's way too much flash, and look at what we took from (Insert Website here) and then put intot the game dude! With out enough thinking it through. I get the desire to approach transhuman issues-but I think a blended approach is what would work better.

[Daylen]

But frankly even secure sites aren't that secure. I hate to use a real world analogy to argue an In Game idea, and I know this horse has been beat to death, drug through a mile of broken glass, resurrected a few times, offed a couple more-but since the people designing the game basically jumped off from a combination of stuff that already existed in games, stuff they saw in movies and read on tech websites I feel confident in saying that the execution isn't all that different from what we have today.

They can be as secure as the people that have access to them are are trustworthy.

[Paul]

I'm not sure what you're saying. I feel like we're not disagreeing but I also am not sure I get where you're going chummer.

[Daylen]

I'm saying for secure servers and connections people are the weak point. Diplomatic cables didn't get out because of hackers, just one young dumb idiot, yet it was probably more catastrophic than if hacked.

[Paul]

I'm saying for secure servers and connections people are the weak point. Diplomatic cables didn't get out because of hackers, just one young dumb idiot, yet it was probably more catastrophic than if hacked.

Okay. I definitely can agree with that.

[KarmaInferno]

Social engineering!

I remember a quote from a hacker in the 80s, he was being interviewed and stated, "Sometimes I think I could call into an office and say 'I'm sitting in this McDonalds eating a burger, I'm gonna need your user name and password.' and I'd get it."




-k

[CanRay]

I remember annoying my supervisor at work when I asked her, "Is this what the official work orders look like?" the first (and only) time I needed tech support.

She looked at me hard, but when I said, "The weakest link in computer security is the human link.", the IT guy just nodded, and she relented. The one time I was able to use my computer knowledge at that job, they were so scared I'd break their contract with the outsourced IT.

Honestly, most times a laminated badge and a official looking piece of paper can get you all kinds of access. Shadowrunners having to hack into systems actually makes sense from how little Corporations trust their employees.

[Hida Tsuzua]

I've always hated Shadowrun's rules for the Matrix. Not once have they been as relatively simple or streamlined as the rest of the game. I can't even begin to understand why that's the case. I think game designers develop some bizarre form of Tourette's Syndrome or something and just start spewing out random, convoluted, confusing, nonsensical rules.

As it stands, I don't know how the Sixth World functions at all considering how many hackers are out there and how painfully easy they get past the security on even the most secure systems.

The matrix rules in SR4 are terrible. I wish I could say that they merely didn't step back and realize how everything fit together. However they seemed to have done that. To be fair, they actually thought cybercombat was something worth doing and not just a mild distraction till you play calvinball with the system or just kick people off. Ultimately, the matrix is vague when it needs to be specific and specific when it needs to be vague and there are a lot of little gotchas and poor layout. To be fair if you use the GM's half remembered matrix rules system, it might not be actually that bad. At least it'll likely be quick and somewhat reasonable.

To be fair, writing a good matrix system is problematic. First off, there's the many worlds problem endemic to SR. There's Mage World and Hacker World (there used to be Rigger World in older editions) where only a few characters can/should go. That means whatever hacking system you use has to be fast. Otherwise when the hacker has to hack, everyone else knows it's pizza time. This was a huge problem with older SR matrix systems. But at the same time, the character's whole stick is that he hacks so it can't be too simple or otherwise your time to shine lasts like 5 seconds and is boring as all heck. This was a problem with Riggers in older editions. You sat around waiting for the 2-3 vehicle tests you'll pwn so hard.

A bigger issue is that you want systems to be hackable by PCs. Otherwise, being a hacker is pointless. But PCs know being hacked is bad news and/or just don't want to worry about so they'll do all they can not to deal with it. This can cause an odd disconnect where the PCs know the "right way" to set up a network, but the multi-billion dollar corporation doesn't. And that'll be a tricky balance to set.

As for the requirements of hacking, you just need an account to start hacking. It doesn't matter which account you use. This means there's a bit of a mini-game of getting an account from someone on the network or getting them to make you one. It also means that getting kicked off due to crashing, reboot, or being kicked off actually matters since they'll disable the offending account once you're gone. That's nice since it means those things matter and are not just a "wait for respawn" message.

[Fortinbras]

Right, but that just means you have to get Matrix access to it, as it were, and the full immersion hacker has access from wherever he is. Of course, the Matrix needn't be involved, either: I could be at one end of a relay of wireless transceivers and you at the other, and we have access to each other. That's how the mesh network of the Matrix works. But Hida Tsuzua is saying something I've never heard anyone say before, and that's that a node can be set up such that the only way to hack it is to be in direct mutual Signal range with it, with no intermediary relay.

Giving devices acces to a Signal from the Matrix doesn't make them Matrix enabled. They need a MSP.