Full Immersion Hacker, Is this viable? Options

[3278]

Giving devices acces to a Signal from the Matrix doesn't make them Matrix enabled. They need a MSP.

Can you cite chapter and verse? That's not something I'd heard before, either. [In fact, SR4a explicitly says, "An MSP is not necessary for surfing
or hacking," on page 218, and Unwired p42 says, "Despite what the ads say, you don’t really need an MSP to get onto the Matrix, your commlink has all the hook-up you need."] My impression is that MSPs aren't for nodes, they're for users.

[Fortinbras]

It's in Unwired. There's a whole chapter on it that basically says you need an MSP, but it's assumed to be part of the Lifestyle cost. Most Shadowrunners just use black MSPs.
Just broadcasting a Signal doesn't immediately hook a thing up to the Matrix. It needs to be subscribed and all that jazz.
EDIT: All I'm saying is that if you don't want to connect your wireless device to the Matrix, you don't have to. And, if you don't, then if someone wants to hack it, they need to be within mutual signal range so the devices can talk to each other. As there are plenty of places that don't have Matrix access, it makes playing a remote hacker less than utilitarian unless the GM is willing to accommodate them.

Just about everywhere runners are going to go is going to be cut off from the Matrix. From the Cascade Mountains to a corp basement, folks don't leave their info just open to the public. If they did, there would be no need for Shadowrunners. Hackers could just sit at home and do all the running from there.
This is why most GMs provide many sources of counter hacking and Signal jamming and degradation. It one of the main reasons Missions has so many air-locked Faradays. There needs to be some reason the Johnson didn't just have his company spyder waltz into whatever system and take it's paydata. There also needs to be a way to protect pay data from wireless intruders.

If you take the hacker away from the team, he's not really part of the team. It's also a giant middle finger to the rest of the team who are putting their butts on the line for the run while the hacker sits safely at home. For the players, it means that in the event of TPK, one player gets to walk away with his character intact, laughing about how stupid everyone was. This in my experience, is the main reason people want to play full immersion hackers in the first place. They want an invincible character.
To allow this in your world is bad game design. To allow such a character is bad GMing. To play such a character is power gaming of the worst sort.

[Fortinbras]

Wouldn't this mean that basically every hacker in the world would have to be an intrusion specialist? That no hacking could ever really be done by telepresence, because all the good stuff is on nodes with Public accounts turned off? This just doesn't seem like how hacking works in SR.

Yes. It's as if they would need an entire team of people to get at any truly valuable data. A team that worked outside the system; in the shadows.
They'd have to be fast, though, to avoid the Man. They'd have to run. In the shadows.

[Aria]

If you take the hacker away from the team, he's not really part of the team. It's also a giant middle finger to the rest of the team who are putting their butts on the line for the run while the hacker sits safely at home. For the players, it means that in the event of TPK, one player gets to walk away with his character intact, laughing about how stupid everyone was. This in my experience, is the main reason people want to play full immersion hackers in the first place. They want an invincible character.
To allow this in your world is bad game design. To allow such a character is bad GMing. To play such a character is power gaming of the worst sort.

I'm not trying to defend the concept per se, I get the arguments and it was only really intended as a character gen. experiment rather than a fully fledged character...but...

Isn't a hacker putting their brain on the line every time they go up against anything remotely secure? Of the three 'worlds' this is the one place when a character is (usually) entirely on their own against the opposition...even with a high stealth program isn't it only a matter of time before their nefarious doings are spotted?!?

Just a thought. Prospero is going to be an NPC in an upcoming scene in the 2072 pbp so we'll see how the other characters deal with him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Well, Peg was able to help Argent despite being a Paraplegic in a clinic somewhere in the world for the longest time. She ran matrix overwatch and got him local talent for the stuff not on the public Matrix.

[UmaroVI]

GM: "What are you guys playing?"

P1: "I'm going to be a badass ex-military guy who cut his arms off for Cyberarms of Awesome"

P2: "I'm going to be a badass street samurai with jacked reflexes."

P3: "I'm going to be a badass Eagle shaman with a weapon focus."

GM: "Fuck it, we'll have an NPC hacker again. She'll be a paraplegic who does remote hacking so she doesn't take up screentime."

[squee_nabob]

If the hacker is hot simming (or is a TM) they put their brains on the line (theoretically).

Also, P1 in the above game needs to call his character Bevin. Spot on Bevin!

[Ol' Scratch]

GM: "Fuck it, we'll have an NPC hacker again. She'll be a paraplegic who does remote hacking so she doesn't take up screentime."

As it should be until the hacking rules make sense.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As it should be until the hacking rules make sense.

Heh... They make sense to me. The key is to NOT try and equate the real world with it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

P2: "I'm going to be a badass street samurai with jacked reflexes."

Actually, he was a Decker as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[3278]

It's in Unwired. There's a whole chapter on it that basically says you need an MSP, but it's assumed to be part of the Lifestyle cost. Most Shadowrunners just use black MSPs.

Yeah, I know there's a lot about MSPs in Unwired. That's not really what I'm asking. I'm asking where it says a node needs an MSP to connect to the Matrix.

Just about everywhere runners are going to go is going to be cut off from the Matrix.

How does that information ever get used, then? How do the people working in the target facilities get information to them? How is it practical for important work to be done without the benefits that come with Matrix access? To put it in today's terms, do you think most targets of industrial espionage don't have internet access? Of course they have internet access: they just have internet security to block unapproved access. The job of a hacker is to get in anyway. None of this is any different, as I see it, in Shadowrun.

From the Cascade Mountains to a corp basement, folks don't leave their info just open to the public. If they did, there would be no need for Shadowrunners. Hackers could just sit at home and do all the running from there.

Sometimes. There are a variety of circumstances in which a hacker might be required to go into a given facility - unidirectional datalines, isolated systems with only physical access, even datalines that physically disconnect according to some algorithm - but they're rare, because they're all impractical for the user as well as for the opposition.

It one of the main reasons Missions has so many air-locked Faradays.

But...wait. Why would air-locked Faradays be required if the hacker has to be within direct mutual Signal range of the device to be hacked, anyway? If there's already a rule requiring direct mutual Signal range, why would anyone - in Missions or elsewhere - have Faraday cages at all?

Hell, all you'd have to do to make a node nigh-unhackable would be to only give it a Signal 0 transceiver, and then just set it within 3 meters of your big transmitter; you'd get all the range you could require, but hackers would have to get within 3 meters to hack the node.

If you take the hacker away from the team, he's not really part of the team.

I've worked with a number of teams who are physically in disparate locations, and I've still felt those persons were a part of the team.

It's also a giant middle finger to the rest of the team who are putting their butts on the line for the run while the hacker sits safely at home.

Sammy: Yeah, that was some pretty risky sitting you did there.
Hacker: That's right, of course, 'cause they wouldn't arrest me if we got caught, I'm just the hacker. I can always say I was running the Matrix by accident.

For the players, it means that in the event of TPK, one player gets to walk away with his character intact, laughing about how stupid everyone was. This in my experience, is the main reason people want to play full immersion hackers in the first place. They want an invincible character.
To allow this in your world is bad game design. To allow such a character is bad GMing. To play such a character is power gaming of the worst sort.

Sorry, but my experiences don't match yours. I'm currently playing a stay-at-home hacker/rigger, and I'm playing him because I find the idea of a paraplegic who extends the range of his physical capability through telepresence fascinating. In the future, more and more people who currently find their capabilities or movements restricted will have an increasing array of options; for many, prosthetics will provide a comparatively simple - if certainly not painless - route to increased mobility, but for some [such as those suffering from ALS and similar ailments, such as my character] prosthetics won't be of any help. For them, particularly for those who have been active and who have suffered from a long descent into infirmity, and who have lost much of their existing social network, a telepresent life - in MMORPGs, in Matrix equivalents of message forums, and, for the hobbyist with an interest in robotics, in the real world, with the aid of drones - will be an increasing temptation, and will come with benefits and drawbacks. I'm interested in exploring the mindset and possibilities of such a person.

Allowing this in your game is good game design, as I would define "good." A game that [i]doesn't allow this is a game I'm not personally interested in playing, although I would stop short of saying it's "bad," because different games are designed to do different things, and different people will enjoy them for different reasons. Allowing such a character is not considered, at our table, bad GMing, unless you allowed it for the wrong reasons, or allowed the player to abuse it, or dealt with it in some lame fashion that wasn't compelling. Playing such a character would similarly come without prejudice: I think most people at our table find the idea interesting, and are looking forward to seeing how it plays out. I'm pretty sure no one has thought, "Why, that 3278, trying to make his character easy and invincible by putting him in a wheelchair and making him almost incapable of independent movement. What a power-gamer!"

Yes. It's as if they would need an entire team of people to get at any truly valuable data. A team that worked outside the system; in the shadows.
They'd have to be fast, though, to avoid the Man. They'd have to run. In the shadows.

Uh, yes, indeed. I see what you did there. Except Shadowrun has a long history of telepresent hackers and deckers, and its rules reflect that. It's interesting that you interpret those rules in another way, but I don't see how your interpretation fits with what you've said about adventure design in Shadowrun; it certainly doesn't fit with my own interpretation, but until we're at the same table, I don't see how anything could possibly matter less. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Sammy: Yeah, that was some pretty risky sitting you did there.
Hacker: That's right, of course, 'cause they wouldn't arrest me if we got caught, I'm just the hacker. I can always say I was running the Matrix by accident.

"He had a gun to my head, officer! I had no other choice! I'm just an innocent, annoying, but completely legal Spam Writer."

"OK, boyo, ye can go."

"Ah, good."

"Right after we alert the news crews outside that you're an innocent, but completely legal Spam Writer."

"... ... Can I get a cell with a view?"

[Fortinbras]

Except Shadowrun has a long history of telepresent hackers and deckers, and its rules reflect that.

Who?
There have been some Oracles in novels, yes, but who are these telehackers? Everyone on Jackpoint, from Netcat to Clockwork to Slamm-O talk about going on actual runs. The asides in the books give examples of them doing so. If remote hacking were all that common why wouldn't the world's best hackers do so?
Even the quintessential telehacker, Icarus from the first Virtual Realities, needed a Shadowteam to extract him.
Almost all Shadowrun stories and adventures have revolved around the sammy/mage/decker triumvirate. The man, the magic and the machine.
Are you saying this isn't the way Shadowrun works? That every Shadowrun adventure, story and trope is wrong?
That the way Shadowrun works is some guy with a satellite in his basement can hack everything in the world and there is literally nothing anyone can do to prevent that signal?

The argument for being able to play a remote hacker is the same argument for being able to play a Great Dragon and it's not fooling anyone.

[Ol' Scratch]

Who?

Before SR4, it was the norm.

[DMiller]

Before SR4, it was the norm.

Actually I think in general the "norm" was NPC Deckers as desking took WAY too long to complete to be able to have a PC decker. At least that's how it usually went at my tables. When we did have a decker with us (NPC or PC) the decking run was run the day before the game so that when the time came the non-deckers would "guard" the decker for the 60 or so seconds it took him to play out the three hours of matrix play from the day before then the GM would announce the results.

When we did have a decker he usually went with us, only rarely was he not physically present unless all he was doing was leg-work for the team.

Just my experiances, YMMV.

-D

[Ryu]

It's in Unwired. There's a whole chapter on it that basically says you need an MSP, but it's assumed to be part of the Lifestyle cost. Most Shadowrunners just use black MSPs.
Just broadcasting a Signal doesn't immediately hook a thing up to the Matrix. It needs to be subscribed and all that jazz.
EDIT: All I'm saying is that if you don't want to connect your wireless device to the Matrix, you don't have to. And, if you don't, then if someone wants to hack it, they need to be within mutual signal range so the devices can talk to each other. As there are plenty of places that don't have Matrix access, it makes playing a remote hacker less than utilitarian unless the GM is willing to accommodate them.

You don´t need an MSP to connect to the matrix. Having one will be very handy for those times your primary commlink is NOT connected to the matrix, and for receiving messages while running around with a spoofed access ID. In other words: very useful and almost mandatory, yes.

Hooking up to the matrix is done via the access ID of a wireless-enabled device. You do not need a commcode for that. Mutual signal range can be established via the automatic routing function of all active nodes. Network segregation requires tricks like WiFi-inhibiting paint.

See: Unwired pg. 54-55 on Routing, pg. 53 on Commcodes.

[3278]

Everyone on Jackpoint, from Netcat to Clockwork to Slamm-O talk about going on actual runs. The asides in the books give examples of them doing so. If remote hacking were all that common why wouldn't the world's best hackers do so?

Because of the countermeasures you've been pointing out, the airlocked Faraday cages and so on. Again, why would these countermeasures be necessary, if someone has to be within ten feet of a node in order to hack it? [Since you can always make a node Signal 0 and just set it next to one with a higher Signal.] That's one of several questions I asked previously to which you've offered no response; you don't have to say anything to us, but you might consider privately to yourself that if you don't have answers to these questions, it's possibly because the way you're running the Matrix doesn't make logical sense within the structure of the game content.

Even the quintessential telehacker, Icarus from the first Virtual Realities, needed a Shadowteam to extract him.

...he needed a team to physically remove him. He didn't need a team to hack remotely.

That the way Shadowrun works is some guy with a satellite in his basement can hack everything in the world and there is literally nothing anyone can do to prevent that signal?

That's most definitely not true. Several people have given several examples of how to isolate systems usefully, thus forcing the hacker to come with the team, or at least forcing clever workarounds to get Signal to someplace. Please don't create false versions of my arguments which have been distorted to as to make them easier to defeat. This isn't a fight, or a debate, or anything you need to invest pride in, so this kind of straw man is just inappropriate and unnecessary.

The argument for being able to play a remote hacker is the same argument for being able to play a Great Dragon and it's not fooling anyone.

Yeah, I don't really know what you mean by this, but I can tell you that many, many Shadowrun groups don't require direct Signal range to hack a node, and it's not disrupting their games as much as a Great Dragon would. It's cool that running it this way works at your table, and it might even be exactly how the rules were intended, but it doesn't make logical sense in the context of the rest of the game system, and it relies on an obscure interpretation of a single passage, which you would expect to see reflected elsewhere in the system, but don't.

[Paul]

Somehow I missed the post that compared playing a remote hacker/decker to playing a Great Dragon. Heh. Look I'd agree that all too often hacker's present some annoying challenges to a group-but yeah sorry I can't agree with that comparison.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Hooking up to the matrix is done via the access ID of a wireless-enabled device. You do not need a commcode for that. Mutual signal range can be established via the automatic routing function of all active nodes. Network segregation requires tricks like WiFi-inhibiting paint.

See: Unwired pg. 54-55 on Routing, pg. 53 on Commcodes.

There's a difference between being in mutual Signal range and having a normal matrix connection.

When two devices are within the range of the lowest Signal rating of the two, they are said to be in mutual Signal range (sic); this is required for direct device-to-device communication and for other applications.

But yeah, you totally want your signal to be 0 and just have a powerful broadcaster right next to it if you don't want to be hacked. If the writer ever thought about the implication of all of this, I would guess they did it to make sure hackers did runs on site.

You might be able to run a persona on a commlink, give it to a buddy, and then hack from there. You'll want ECCM to deal with jammers, but that isn't that bad. Then you control the commlink via datajack or trodes over a normal matrix encrypted channel. I could see a lot of GMs shooting this down since it seems odd that "your" commlink might be 10+ kilometers away from you. This also has the side effect of attempts to track you leads to that commlink's location not your basement.

Also, I don't think reason people want to play Full Immersion Hackers isn't an immunity to TPKs. Odds are, they'll be able to find out the dude from the other PCs via their commlinks or mind probe and then take him out. The reason I see people wanting to do it is because of the "leaving the meat world behind for the wonders of the Internet!" trope. There's also huge point savings when you don't need worry about meat combat.

[KarmaInferno]

Before SR4, it was the norm.

Before SR4, the SR world wasn't ubiquitously wireless. Secure networks wer regularly isolated from the Matrix, so deckers often HAD to physically penetrate a facility to find a jackpoint from which to hack into it's network.

I direct everyone to the cover image for Shadowrun 1st and 2nd edition. A decker, plugging his cables into a jackpoint in the facility he is breaking into, while his team holds off the opposition. THAT is the iconic image of a decker. Even the 3rd edition cover showed a similar situation. The remote decker existed, but was in no way commonplace as there were too many situations where he could not do jack squat due to lack of connection.



-k

[Daylen]

Before SR4, the SR world wasn't ubiquitously wireless. Secure networks wer regularly isolated from the Matrix, so deckers often HAD to physically penetrate a facility to find a jackpoint from which to hack into it's network.

I direct everyone to the cover image for Shadowrun 1st and 2nd edition. A decker, plugging his cables into a jackpoint in the facility he is breaking into, while his team holds off the opposition. THAT is the iconic image of a decker. Even the 3rd edition cover showed a similar situation. The remote decker existed, but was in no way commonplace as there were too many situations where he could not do jack squat due to lack of connection.



-k

For secured networks I would think this is still the case. I know it is for anything with classified processing. If it is hackable don't allow access, restrict to physical only for another layer of security.

[Ol' Scratch]

Before SR4, the SR world wasn't ubiquitously wireless.

Gosh golly, really? I had absolutely no idea.

Secure networks wer regularly isolated from the Matrix, so deckers often HAD to physically penetrate a facility to find a jackpoint from which to hack into it's network.

I direct everyone to the cover image for Shadowrun 1st and 2nd edition. A decker, plugging his cables into a jackpoint in the facility he is breaking into, while his team holds off the opposition. THAT is the iconic image of a decker. Even the 3rd edition cover showed a similar situation.

Yes, runs where you had to be physically there were present. Doesn't change a thing; stay-at-home (or more often, stay-in-van) deckers were still a mainstay.

The remote decker existed, but was in no way commonplace as there were too many situations where he could not do jack squat due to lack of connection.

And you['d still be wrong about that. They were very, very commonplace. The Quadriplegic flaw was used like crazy.

[3278]

There's a difference between being in mutual Signal range and having a normal matrix connection.

Okay, but: why? Aside from the obvious - a device-to-device link means no routing through another connection - why would a direct connection be different from a routed connection, in terms of how the device dealt with the traffic? And why would Shadowrun include so many Signal-defeating technologies if you have to have a direct connection in order to hack [but not, presumably, to do anything else with]? Why wouldn't all secure devices simply include an on-die wireless relay, 2 nodes on one motherboard, one connected to the other through a Signal 0 link, and thus Unhackable Except From Very Near By?

Maybe this is a question someone could answer for me: this all stems from one sentence. "In order to hack a node, you must either be within mutual Signal range of the target node’s device or have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix." What about "have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix" doesn't make remote hacking possible?

You might be able to run a persona on a commlink, give it to a buddy, and then hack from there. You'll want ECCM to deal with jammers, but that isn't that bad. Then you control the commlink via datajack or trodes over a normal matrix encrypted channel. I could see a lot of GMs shooting this down since it seems odd that "your" commlink might be 10+ kilometers away from you. This also has the side effect of attempts to track you leads to that commlink's location not your basement.

Hmm. Well, I think we have very different ideas of how the Matrix works, might be the thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay, but: why? Aside from the obvious - a device-to-device link means no routing through another connection - why would a direct connection be different from a routed connection, in terms of how the device dealt with the traffic? And why would Shadowrun include so many Signal-defeating technologies if you have to have a direct connection in order to hack [but not, presumably, to do anything else with]? Why wouldn't all secure devices simply include an on-die wireless relay, 2 nodes on one motherboard, one connected to the other through a Signal 0 link, and thus Unhackable Except From Very Near By?

Maybe this is a question someone could answer for me: this all stems from one sentence. "In order to hack a node, you must either be within mutual Signal range of the target node’s device or have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix." What about "have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix" doesn't make remote hacking possible?


Hmm. Well, I think we have very different ideas of how the Matrix works, might be the thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well...

1. You can be in DIRECT CONTACT with the Node (and perform a Hardware hack as it were).
2. You can physicall wire directly in (Similar to the above)
3. You can remotely hack through a Wired interface (Assuming one exists)
4. You can remotely Hack through the Wireless interface if you can establish Mutual Signal Range (Through Drones or other proxy Services, Assuming it Lets you in)
5. You can hack through the Matrix (assuming a connection exists, and is similar to 3 and 4 above, dependant upon which paradigm the target uses)

Now, Functionally, 3-5 are very similar, and only depends upon the architecture of the system you are trying to hack. In the 2070's, Wireless is ubiquitous, so many of your systems will be hackable either through a Wireless connection or a Matrix Connection. SOME systems will disable the wireless connection completely (Through various means), which will then require a wired or direct connection

All of these are possible scenarios that a Hacker may encounter, dependant upon how much work is needed to establish a connection to the target host.

As for your last question. It stems from an assumption that all Systems will have a Wireless connection. If that wireless is disabled, then the only other alternative is to forge a direct connection in one way or another.

Mutual Signal Range is entertaining, though. A lot of people have commented that all you need is a satellite link and a high qualith ECCM program to completely negate the threat of Jamming. The problem with that assumption is that you must still have "Mutual" signal range. You can have all the best hardware/software in the world, with a combined Signal of 14 for Jamming Purposes; but if your target is only a Signal 3 system, with Wifi Inhibition of 3, then they have an effective Signal of 0, so you must STILL be within 3 meters to hack it (or be within the Signal Jamming Sphere, where the Wifi Inhibition on the exterior is not a factor). Quite entertaining, actually.

Not sure if this has helped answer your question, though.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Okay, but: why? Aside from the obvious - a device-to-device link means no routing through another connection - why would a direct connection be different from a routed connection, in terms of how the device dealt with the traffic? And why would Shadowrun include so many Signal-defeating technologies if you have to have a direct connection in order to hack [but not, presumably, to do anything else with]? Why wouldn't all secure devices simply include an on-die wireless relay, 2 nodes on one motherboard, one connected to the other through a Signal 0 link, and thus Unhackable Except From Very Near By?

Maybe this is a question someone could answer for me: this all stems from one sentence. "In order to hack a node, you must either be within mutual Signal range of the target node’s device or have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix." What about "have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix" doesn't make remote hacking possible?

You want sense in the Matrix rules? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) In order to do that, you'll have to rebuild the entire system up to and including first principles. You would have my blessings if you tried though because it really needs it.

Unless there really are technomantic hacking rays coming from your commlink, I'm not sure why the rules make such a big deal about mutual Signal range (including other things like pinging accessids). Then again since the matrix network layout is at best weird from a networking perceptive maybe it's some fundamental to the matrix working thing.

The subscription requirement makes a bit more sense. Since you already have a connection to the node, you have exploiting that. That's also why you can matrix punch people though them with attack programs.

Edit- One thing I might rule is that wired connections are considered to have mutual Signal range to whatever they are connected to via wires. This means wired connections isn't just better than wireless from a security standpoint. That doesn't match very well with real life, but it encourages wireless usage which is a good thing in my book for SR.

Hmm. Well, I think we have very different ideas of how the Matrix works, might be the thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I personally think the "hand your buddy your commlink" tactic is fine ruleswise. However, I could see some GMs thinking it's cheesy or silly and not allowing it. Sadly technomancers can't hand over their bionode over.