[X] My Assistant

[Medicineman]

who has leftover creation cash? My chars usually start out living under a bridge.

You might be doing something wrong then
I'd rather make sure that my Chars have most of what They need in Equipment at the Start

with a well equipped Dance
Medicineman

[Daylen]

You might be doing something wrong then
I'd rather make sure that my Chars have most of what They need in Equipment at the Start

with a well equipped Dance
Medicineman

If the char needs equipment I buy it, I'm just saying there is usually nothing left over for a lifestyle.

[JonathanC]

Just cause everyone calls the moon cheese doesn't make it true. I get what you are saying but the main point of a lot of the original cyber punk was, and still is, corporate espionage. Not something I would consider low life. Criminal and low life aren't synonymous to me, though they may be to many. While Case from Neuromancer might be EASILY low life you then start to drift to Mona Lisa Overdrive you have Kumiko which is neither a criminal nor poor, just in a wrong place at a wrong time with the wrong family. The game is what you make it. If you want high tech and low life then you can easily get it. You can just as easily get cutting edge and high end.

See, this is what happens when people confuse "the life works of William Gibson" with "the entire genre of cyberpunk". Didn't he move into post-cyberpunk fairly quickly? Try looking into George Alec Effinger, or Bruce Sterling, or Pat Cadigan, then talk about the "main point of cyberpunk". It's not about corporate espionage, it's about dehumanization, technology, oppression, a dash of transhumanism, and noir.

And you can't have noir if you don't have low life.

[Christian Lafay]

Again it comes down to "what is low life". Some have argued it is being poor and others have argued it was just being a criminal. You want to get noir? Show me the detective with the frosted glass window and the impressive voice-over talking about a woman's even more impressive gams that could stop traffic. A bit like Dirty Dirk, if I recall correctly, from the Shadowrun novel 2XS. Again, just a guy working by his morals and beliefs who gets swept up in something huge.

[Ascalaphus]

I think that Turner from Mona Lisa Overdrive is a good example of a cyberpunk protagonist who isn't low-life, but is still dehumanized and at the mercy of zaibatsus. I mean, his introduction starts with him getting blown up, then being clinically reconstructed. That's not low-life, but it's quite dehumanizing to play around mortality like that, at the behest of a corporation. He's still alienated from society, just not poor.

It just happens that poverty is a very effective way to alienate/disenfranchise characters. But it's not the only way.

[JonathanC]

I think it's fair to say that poverty is considerably more "traditional" in cyberpunk than "corporate espionage", though. There are plenty of cyberpunk stories that have little to nothing to do with corporate espionage. Blade Runner involves a corp, but there's no corporate espionage. Ditto for Snow Crash. There aren't even any corps involved in the main plot of When Gravity Fails.

Since when is the entire genre defined by a couple of William Gibson books? There were cyberpunk authors before him, and after him. He's one guy. He's not even universally loved; I know people who can't stand his style of prose (I've got no problems with it, personally).

[JonathanC]

Apropos of nothing, Ghost in the Shell is an example of cyberpunk that involves neither corporate espionage nor poverty.

[Ascalaphus]

Maybe I should've phrased it differently.

"High tech, low life" is a too-simplistic description for cyberpunk. It's not without any merit, but it lacks nuance. There's quite some cyberpunk stories out there with protagonists who aren't all that poor. Some of them have jobs, some get paid vast sums of money to break the law, some of them are the daughter of yakuza bosses and have all their material needs cared for.

Almost all cyberpunk protagonists are alienated. Loners, illegals, poor people, traumatized by The War, criminals, invasively changed by technology to the point where they're not all that human anymore. Or poor.

Society isn't a happy place. Basically society is negative; it's not succeeding in making life better, if it even tries. This is intertwined with the protagonist's alienation. They don't particularly get along with society. They probably loathe it. They also tend to loathe themselves.

It's a shitty life, even if you're not poor. Turner isn't poor, but he does get blown up and then sown back together. Kumiko is isolated by her father's wealth and is so sheltered she doesn't realize her mother killed herself out of depression - which she verges on herself.

It's just that poverty and alienation go well together, and "high tech and alienation" doesn't sound as catchy.

Capturing a genre in just four words isn't going to be very accurate. It'll exclude stories and characters that deserve to be counted in.

Come to think of it, another way to interpret HTLL, is to contrast increasing machine-ization of society versus "natural" life. More tech, less life. Implants, "processing" "subjects", bureaucracy, faceless corporations: technology instead of life.

[Daylen]

Apropos of nothing, Ghost in the Shell is an example of cyberpunk that involves neither corporate espionage nor poverty.

That is almost THE perfect example of post-cyberpunk. No real elements of film noir, no real punk aspect, replacement of dehumanisation with transhuman themes. As has been said before though, and should be very obvious, SR is more than just cyberpunk.

[JonathanC]

That is almost THE perfect example of post-cyberpunk. No real elements of film noir, no real punk aspect, replacement of dehumanisation with transhuman themes. As has been said before though, and should be very obvious, SR is more than just cyberpunk.

I usually think of The Matrix as the perfect example, but you have a point. I suppose Bubblegum Crisis is the halfway point.

Bringing this back to Shadowrun, I feel that the game has lost a lot of its "grimy", gritty feel since the books moved to a less poverty-striken, more "everybody has shiny stuff" feel.

[CanRay]

That is almost THE perfect example of post-cyberpunk. No real elements of film noir, no real punk aspect, replacement of dehumanisation with transhuman themes. As has been said before though, and should be very obvious, SR is more than just cyberpunk.

I miss film noir and punk.

*Watches "Sin City" again to feel better*

[MortVent]

I always like the way "tiger tiger" did it.. even if it has jaunting, telepathy, and space colonies.

Has just the right feel to it for shadowrun with those added.

Note: "The stars my destination" is the usual title in the US

[Glyph]

I wouldn't call Bubblegum Crisis cyberpunk, really, although it was inspirited by Blade Runner to the point where they had a character named Priss. It had a protagonists vs. megacorporation conflict going on, and some atmospheric futuristic grit and squalor, but the Knight Sabres were more traditional asskicking heroes. When the evil corporate executive declares a personal war on them, they fight their way to the top of the massive corporate pyramid, kill the exec, and sign the crime scene. And they don't sweat the cops. The cops are a paramilitary unit with mecha, attack helicoptors, assault rifles, and tanks, that they bail out of trouble.

[Daylen]

I wouldn't call Bubblegum Crisis cyberpunk, really, although it was inspirited by Blade Runner to the point where they had a character named Priss. It had a protagonists vs. megacorporation conflict going on, and some atmospheric futuristic grit and squalor, but the Knight Sabres were more traditional asskicking heroes. When the evil corporate executive declares a personal war on them, they fight their way to the top of the massive corporate pyramid, kill the exec, and sign the crime scene. And they don't sweat the cops. The cops are a paramilitary unit with mecha, attack helicoptors, assault rifles, and tanks, that they bail out of trouble.

Oh my...

I never got to Bubblegum crisis. I think I finished AD police, that was fairly cyberpunk.

[Glyph]

From what I remember, A.D. Police focused on the negative effects of cybernetic augmentations as one of its main themes, so definitely more cyberpunkish.

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, BGC was more about chicks in power armor fighting killer robots.

Also, had some catchy music.



-k

[Midas]

I think it's fair to say that poverty is considerably more "traditional" in cyberpunk than "corporate espionage", though. There are plenty of cyberpunk stories that have little to nothing to do with corporate espionage. Blade Runner involves a corp, but there's no corporate espionage. Ditto for Snow Crash. There aren't even any corps involved in the main plot of When Gravity Fails.

Since when is the entire genre defined by a couple of William Gibson books? There were cyberpunk authors before him, and after him. He's one guy. He's not even universally loved; I know people who can't stand his style of prose (I've got no problems with it, personally).

Who wrote cyberpunk before William Gibson? There was me thinking the word was used to describe his writing ...

[Midas]

Who wrote cyberpunk before William Gibson? There was me thinking the word was used to describe his writing ...

Sorry, I meant coined, not used ...
(Rushes to wikipedia)

[3278]

Who wrote cyberpunk before William Gibson? There was me thinking the word was used to describe his writing ...

Well, Bruce Bethke definitely wrote cyberpunk before Gibson: it was his word. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But Sterling was writing cyberpunk before Gibson, too, as was Rudy Rucker. Gibson was a relative latecomer, as far as Founders go.

That said, it's like asking who played the first jazz, or what the first hip-hop record was; cyberpunk didn't spring one night, fully-formed, from the forehead of William Gibson or anyone else: there's a continuum of writing which led up to it. Philip K Dick was cyberpunk enough for me to use the word without quotes to describe him, and John M Ford's Web of Angels described decking three years before Gibson produced Neuromancer.

Genres are helpful piles, but lousy pigeonholes.

[Christian Lafay]

And as such, sadly, have figure heads. For better or worse Gibson was, and may still be, this genre's figurehead.

[Paul]

Luckily we don't have limit ourselves to what the figurehead, or traditional limits of the genre are!

[Glyph]

Luckily we don't have limit ourselves to what the figurehead, or traditional limits of the genre are!

... You didn't make the switch to the new edition?

[Daylen]

Luckily we don't have limit ourselves to what the figurehead, or traditional limits of the genre are!

I should think not, with magic and elves.

[Paul]

Ha! Ironically enough I like Magic in Shadowrun. I suppose that's at odds with how I normally feel about the PMS (Pink Mohawk Shadowrun) but hey even I know when to strap on my dancing shoes and get groovy!

[phlapjack77]

But Sterling was writing cyberpunk before Gibson, too, as was Rudy Rucker.

Man, I just recently read Rudy Rucker's stuff. Really, really good.