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> Making Data Search interesting, and still useful
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post Nov 8 2011, 03:22 AM
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[Note: I think this topic has been discussed before, but I couldn't find any older threads. If you have links, please share.]

Lately I have noticed that Data Search, while characterful and appropriate to the SR setting, can be somewhat problematic from a roleplaying perspective. When used liberally (as described in the BBB) it can basically reduce an adventure to the hacker rolling a pile of dice until the GM discloses the plot. Thats probably a gross exaggeration, but you get the point.

One of the issues, I think, is the relatively short intervals listed for Data Search Extended Tests in the BBB. If you can search the entire Matrix in a matter of minutes it has almost no appreciable effect on the time course of the game. Skilled PCs can start Data Searching the second Mr. Johnson stands up from the negotiating table and have most of the plot figured out before he reaches the door. It also doesn't leave a lot of room for IC description or role play. The GM can only describe "Google 2070" (or equivalent) so many times before the players get sick of hearing it.

So I've been trying to come up with ways to make Data Search more interesting, and figured I'd ask you miscreants how you manage this in your games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

For example, I'm thinking that a cursory Matrix search should only yield General or Public knowledge (Threshold 6), and anything more detailed should at least require some time locating and accessing a specialized or topic-specific node/BBS/chat room. Hidden data (Threshold 24) should take some serious digging. I like that Protected data basically requires that a node be hacked. I'm thinking about tweeking the Extended Test Intervals somehow to reflect this, but I don't want to totally nerf the low-end data and make it take 15 minutes to find a pizza delivery place.

So anybody have any bright ideas?
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Makki
post Nov 8 2011, 06:18 AM
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we got rid of the extended test. We use the general threshold table (1,2,4,6) and you role only once. Net hits determine amount and detail of data found. Worst case is, the searcher found a hint or link to the data, but needs to hack into its node.
Time needed is handwaved by the GM.
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Mercer
post Nov 8 2011, 07:13 AM
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I wouldn't worry about nerfing low-end data searches, I'd just assume that for simple and obvious things (like locating pizza places) its automatic.
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Ascalaphus
post Nov 8 2011, 10:32 AM
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I say, decide beforehand if the data is on the Matrix, then assign it a rarity value. Not everything will be on the Matrix. Particularly high-level crimes in progress won't be.

And yeah, the extended tests are kinda silly, a good hacker will never fail them, it's just rolling more dice.
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Blade
post Nov 8 2011, 11:00 AM
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I consider that the Datasearch+Browse roll shows how much useful information you get but if you're looking for something complex, you'll then need to do a Logic+Dataseach roll to see what you can get out of it. And the interval of this test is in hours.

I also consider that due to the obvious risks of putting information on the Matrix, a lot of important information won't be found there. Want to know about where and when the guns stolen by some gang will be sold? You'll have to physically visit a gang member, and you'll only be able to meet him if you're sent by someone he trusts, who you'll probably have to meet (physically or not) first... It makes sure that the hacker won't be doing all the legwork on his own in a few seconds.
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klinktastic
post Nov 8 2011, 11:54 AM
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I think the key to making data search rewarding, challenging, and still useful is to lean on the player to make it effective.

Makki would have you remove the player's intelligence and just roll and get answers. That, in my opinion, really ruins it.

I typically play it like I would be doing a data search in real life. The PC needs a starting point to do a search. You don't just open the matrix up and say, "Give me information!" and then you get it. I would, for example, on a run where my team was to recover an item stolen from a music mogul's mansion, do something like the following.

Me: I'm going to do a data search attempting to see if there have been multiple robberies in the same area or of high income areas within the past two months.
Rolls 15 dice, gets a bunch of successes.

GM: Yeah, by cross references news articles, you noticed that there have been a rash of robberies in the general area.

Me: I'm going to do a more indepth data search to see if the robberies appear to be connected, for example, are there consistencies between the details of the robberies. Rolls 15 dice, gets a lot of successes

GM: You noticed that most of them are very similar, the robbers held up the families and then stole stuff. However, the one on your Johnson's mansion was not held up because no one was home. However, similar stuff was stolen as well as the item which he wants to retrieve, which wouldn't ordinarily have value to traditional robbers...at least from what you can gather.

Me: Well team, I did some data searches. There have been a string of robberies in the area, but those were probably a mask for the true theft of our Johnson's house. Most likely, the opposition hired some thugs to run a distraction while they hit the Johnson's mansion...or at least that's my best guess. Lets see if we can track this group down...maybe they'll sell out their benefactor when we tell them that they've been set up as the fall guys.

What this does is reward the player for being intelligent, using actual key words for search, and rewards them for following the subtle clues provided in each search.

That's how it should be run, in my opinion.
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Makki
post Nov 8 2011, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE (klinktastic @ Nov 8 2011, 01:54 PM) *
Makki would have you remove the player's intelligence and just roll and get answers. That, in my opinion, really ruins it.

I wonder how you got this information about my table's playing style...
I only described a house ruled changed in game mechanics (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

nevertheless, you're opening a totally different box. What if my Hacker-player is really dumb in real life, but plays a Logic 8 character?
What if a face player is very shy and quiet, but his character has Cha 7?
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klinktastic
post Nov 8 2011, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE (Makki @ Nov 8 2011, 06:09 AM) *
I wonder how you got this information about my table's playing style...
I only described a house ruled changed in game mechanics (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

nevertheless, you're opening a totally different box. What if my Hacker-player is really dumb in real life, but plays a Logic 8 character?
What if a face player is very shy and quiet, but his character has Cha 7?



Two points to addess. I'm not saying your table style is bad, I'm saying in this one instance, you're taking away a lot of the PC's ability to interact with the story.

When you're playing out of your element, which I'd have a hard time relating to, the GM should prod the player along. If the PC is an idiot but playing a Logic 8 character, the GM should probably be spoon feeding him a bit. Personally, if I was GM'ing, I would probably tell that PC to roll something they could utilize more effectively.

I just have a hard time numbing down rules to just spoon feed what you want the PC's to get. I much perfer to have the PC's drive the story, and be rewarded for innovative and creative thinking.

Edit - Also, simplifying isn't what the OP wanted. He wanted to make it more interesting besides just roll and get free information.
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scarius
post Nov 8 2011, 01:11 PM
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i ask what my players are searching for and how long they are going to do the searching.

the example that klinktastic has given above is pretty much how i run it, but i change a few things, nothing too big though.
also becuase data searching and cross checking and all that jazz takes some time the resault varies upon how much time is spent doing said searching, also the character it pretty much out of the game while doing the searching, but i guess that is why everyone does their leg work differently
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Ascalaphus
post Nov 8 2011, 01:54 PM
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I'm quite okay with most basic data searching going very quickly. When the team is doing stuff in the middle of a run, and they need to know some data, look it up. If you could google it in a few minutes IRL, it should be that fast in SR, too.

It's just that not everything is available on the Matrix; most yakuza bosses don't blog about their secret hiding places (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Blade
post Nov 8 2011, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 8 2011, 02:54 PM) *
It's just that not everything is available on the Matrix; most yakuza bosses don't blog about their secret hiding places (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

"Today, we went on the Sea with my pal Yamamoto and a dead guy.
Here is a pic of Yamamoto and me and the concrete mxier with dead guy inside. He was heavy with his concrete shoes, lol!
omg, g2g, Oyabun calling for dinner. Better not make him mad, lol.

xoxo
Yakuzaman69"
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klinktastic
post Nov 8 2011, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 8 2011, 07:54 AM) *
I'm quite okay with most basic data searching going very quickly. When the team is doing stuff in the middle of a run, and they need to know some data, look it up. If you could google it in a few minutes IRL, it should be that fast in SR, too.

It's just that not everything is available on the Matrix; most yakuza bosses don't blog about their secret hiding places (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)



I know I could data search way faster in SR4 with skinlinks and more complex data search systems. You're searching at the speed of thought basically.

Not to mention VR data searches, how easy it would be to run multiple queries, increasing your ability to cross-reference.
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3278
post Nov 8 2011, 02:40 PM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Nov 8 2011, 12:00 PM) *
I also consider that due to the obvious risks of putting information on the Matrix, a lot of important information won't be found there. Want to know about where and when the guns stolen by some gang will be sold? You'll have to physically visit a gang member, and you'll only be able to meet him if you're sent by someone he trusts, who you'll probably have to meet (physically or not) first... It makes sure that the hacker won't be doing all the legwork on his own in a few seconds.

That said, it's amazing how much personal information people are making public now, many of whom are criminals and should know better. Even if you assume that this kind of thing will tail off as people wise up to the technology, there's an unreal amount of data about criminals on public the "public Matrix" now. Foursquare check-ins, Latitude, misfired pictures, idiot social networking posts, hell just stepping in front of the wrong webcam at the wrong time, are all liabilities criminals struggle with today, even professional ones. In Shadowrun, where cameras and the matrix are pretty ubiquitous [depending on where you are], it's going to be even harder to keep all your business off the public Matrix [and virtually impossible to keep it all off the Matrix, period].

But tracking down four frames of one webcam shot from a week ago should be pretty tough when all you're working with is Data Search, and I agree the rules should reflect that difficulty. klinktastic described the process that works at our table. We don't really use Extended Tests to do it, but we run it like any other kind of legwork, going from lead to lead.

*I've lost track of the times I've read something like, "Be around later. Got some, um, stuff to do with the boys first," much less, "Gotta go downtown make some MONEY!" This is magnified a thousandfold if you include references to buying, selling, or using drugs.
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Midas
post Nov 9 2011, 05:47 AM
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klinktastic, nice example!

I too think you need to ask the right questions, and that Data Search is mostly limited to public information. What with bloggers and stuff, you should also be able to dig up rumours surrounding a target corp, perhaps publicly stored floorplans etc, but unless their security is particularly porous you won't be able to tell what security countermeasures are in place. You want the security cam footage from a given camera, you will have to go oldskool and hack the camera, find where it sends its data and hack into the archives there.

As for stupid players playing the LOG 8 hacker, the GM can perhaps give the player hints on what keywords his character might logically be able to deduce, at least at first ...
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Ascalaphus
post Nov 9 2011, 10:29 AM
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I'm not too fond of "the player has to be clever with search terms". That's basically what your stats are for; the player states "I want the scoop on X", and his Browse program, Data Search skill and Logic all aid in knowing that Y is a synonym for X, that data for X is stored in Z, and so forth.

I'd rather do follow-up questions. "I check out X." *roll* Turns out X has to do with Y. "Then I'll check out Y." *roll* And so forth.

Data Search shouldn't replace other legwork, I'd like it to dovetail with it; the Face goes to talk to people, while the hacker listens along and looks up everything mentioned by people the Face talks to; fact-checks what people tell the Face, or gets their info to give the Face leverage, that sort of thing.
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Seriously Mike
post Nov 9 2011, 12:01 PM
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QUOTE (3278 @ Nov 8 2011, 03:40 PM) *
*I've lost track of the times I've read something like, "Be around later. Got some, um, stuff to do with the boys first," much less, "Gotta go downtown make some MONEY!" This is magnified a thousandfold if you include references to buying, selling, or using drugs.
"Sure, I'll ask my Tambourine Man", much? (reference to one scene from "Dangerous Minds")
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klinktastic
post Nov 9 2011, 01:37 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 9 2011, 04:29 AM) *
I'm not too fond of "the player has to be clever with search terms". That's basically what your stats are for; the player states "I want the scoop on X", and his Browse program, Data Search skill and Logic all aid in knowing that Y is a synonym for X, that data for X is stored in Z, and so forth.

I'd rather do follow-up questions. "I check out X." *roll* Turns out X has to do with Y. "Then I'll check out Y." *roll* And so forth.

Data Search shouldn't replace other legwork, I'd like it to dovetail with it; the Face goes to talk to people, while the hacker listens along and looks up everything mentioned by people the Face talks to; fact-checks what people tell the Face, or gets their info to give the Face leverage, that sort of thing.


Yeah, I ultimately think you need to tailor it to your PCs. If they like puzzle solving and piecing together clues, then I'd recommend my method. If they enjoy being spoon-feed, then by all means. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but some PCs just aren't very smart or they lack the desire to think during the legwork stage. They just want to get to the actual run. Which I can understand because that's were the action is.
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Ascalaphus
post Nov 9 2011, 01:49 PM
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I'm not wild about "spoon-fed", sounds a bit negative. I think data searching is just one of the duller parts of legwork, better to breeze through it. Talking with interesting NPCs is more fun than doing desktop research; that's too much like RL work.

Piecing together clues can be an interesting group-discussion thing, but worrying about search terms is drudgery to me.
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klinktastic
post Nov 9 2011, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 9 2011, 07:49 AM) *
I'm not wild about "spoon-fed", sounds a bit negative. I think data searching is just one of the duller parts of legwork, better to breeze through it. Talking with interesting NPCs is more fun than doing desktop research; that's too much like RL work.

Piecing together clues can be an interesting group-discussion thing, but worrying about search terms is drudgery to me.



I usually make data searches a collaborative effort. Most of the time, multiple party members are on VR doing searches (teamwork aid bonuses to the main hacker/data search guy). That tends to make the "key word" game a little more fun, when they are all making suggestions and different people are involved in trying to correlate and cross-refence the data provided. I'm not saying its more fun than combat, but it can be pretty fun.
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pbangarth
post Nov 9 2011, 02:25 PM
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I like the combination of Skill + Program to find a bunch of info and LOG + Skill to determine how much the PC can glean from the data. We tend to avoid Extended Tests for Data Search as well. As a GM I will ask what the PC is searching for, get the roll, and then get the results to the PC when it fits the story and flow of the game, adjusted according to the number of his successes.

In terms of the 'spoon feeding' side discussion, I think it is no more spoon feeding to give a regular player playing a genius some help for his PC in the LOG department than it is to give the spindly, thin player (??) the pleasure of her troll ripping doors off their hinges. Or the decent human being the chance to play shooting people in the face for money. Some of role playing is about pretending to be something you are not.
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klinktastic
post Nov 9 2011, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Nov 9 2011, 08:25 AM) *
In terms of the 'spoon feeding' side discussion, I think it is no more spoon feeding to give a regular player playing a genius some help for his PC in the LOG department than it is to give the spindly, thin player (??) the pleasure of her troll ripping doors off their hinges. Or the decent human being the chance to play shooting people in the face for money. Some of role playing is about pretending to be something you are not.


Completely agree.

I think the simple answer to the OP's question is that there is no "right" way. As you can see, different tables handle it differently. If you're players are more about the combat, the minimize the extended test stuff to streamline the legwork process. If they like collaborative problem solving, then you can open it up. Really, just like anything in RPGs, needs to be tailored to the preferences of the group.
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Midas
post Nov 10 2011, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 9 2011, 10:29 AM) *
I'm not too fond of "the player has to be clever with search terms". That's basically what your stats are for; the player states "I want the scoop on X", and his Browse program, Data Search skill and Logic all aid in knowing that Y is a synonym for X, that data for X is stored in Z, and so forth.

I'd rather do follow-up questions. "I check out X." *roll* Turns out X has to do with Y. "Then I'll check out Y." *roll* And so forth.

Data Search shouldn't replace other legwork, I'd like it to dovetail with it; the Face goes to talk to people, while the hacker listens along and looks up everything mentioned by people the Face talks to; fact-checks what people tell the Face, or gets their info to give the Face leverage, that sort of thing.


I am not saying the player has to be clever with search terms, only that he has to tell me what he is looking for, which seems fairly synonymous with your "I want the scoop on X." As you say, where the PC will turn up the data from is covered by character knowledge (represented by the Data Search skill) and Browse program. I as the GM will decide how much info is out there and based on the no of successes how much the data searcher finds.

This will also vary with what if any info the PC has to start with. For instance, "I want the scoop on the Johnson" won't fly at my table, although "I want to trace ownership of the Mitsubishi Nightsky licence no XXXX XXX" will. (Of course, any self respecting Johnson will use morphing licence plates, so the PCs probably wouldn't get any usable info from that line of enquiry.)
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