Your top 5 Spirit types, the shenanigans tradition Options

[Makki]

Please choose what you think are the best 5 spirit types. Please choose exactly 5. If you failed to count to 5, who allowed you to register on this forum?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Interesting Poll, but I think it is somewhat flawed, fundamentally.

The reason I think so is that I would choose my Spirits for a Custom Tradition based upon what the TRADITION would consider appropriate spirits, not what I thought the Optimal Spirits would be.

In the poll, I chose what I would consider to be the Optimal Spirits, Overall. I did not choose Appropriate Spirits for a specific Magical Tradition, however. These two are very rarely the same thing.

Just my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Makki]

and you're 100% correct. I had the same thoughts, both when creating the poll and when answering.
This is a 100% crunch 0% fluff question.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

and you're 100% correct. I had the same thoughts, both when creating the poll and when answering.
This is a 100% crunch 0% fluff question.

Okay then... Works for me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[UmaroVI]

I seem to be the only one who thinks Water spirits belong. Here's my argument:

They are definitely not in the top 4, because Man, Guardian, Guidance, and Task are all better. Water spirits bring Weather Control, which is a unique and useful ability no other spirit type gets, and IMO that makes them the 5th choice. The remaining spirit types don't have any unique tricks that one of the first four can't do as well or better.

[3278]

There are clearly a few standouts in the poll. What, for someone with minimal experience with spirits in SR4, makes these so widely held to be more powerful?

[ggodo]

Men get spells in addition to spirit powers, Guardians are trained in every combat skill, Tasks get every non combat skill, and Guidance gets divination, which is really as good as your GM houserules. Basically, guardian posesses you, you get guardian's stats, guardian's skills, and your pimped out assault rifle/cannon. Go killing machine, GO!

[BlackJaw]

One thing I noticed while working on a tradition is that not all spirits seems viable in all roles.

That is to say, if take the idea seriously that your Health spirit will be summoned only for HEALTH related ideas, than making Fire your Health spirit type is a bit odd, and certain spirits work better than others in some cases.

From memory, so I hope I'm not getting too much wrong:

Nearly all the spirits are viable at combat, but Guardian, Fire, and Beast all have extra nice reasons to do so. Man too, if you know combat spells.

Detection: Guidance spirits have divination and search, which makes then good for Detection

Healing: Man can cast spells, which if you have access to health spells, makes them viable as a healer. If you can get Greater Spirits and are of the possession type, Plant spirits with regeneration are also nice. Otherwise, I look for spirits with defensive abilities, like Guard and Magical guard... which I think is also plant. I also think a task spirit could have medical skills.

Illusion really requires a spirit type with Concealment, like Air. I think Guidance spirits also have the shadowcloak(?) power which is along these lines.

Manipulation... well I like spirits with powers like Confusion, Influence, and Fear... but it really depends on what you consider "manipulation."

Overall, I find the 4 elemental spirits from the core book a bit hard to fit into categories. Their powers are limited to mostly combat and elemental stuff. The spirits of Man, Guardian, Beast, Guidance, Task, and Plant tend to have more diverse ability sets which makes them more interesting, and useful, in nearly all roles.

[Ol' Scratch]

One thing I noticed while working on a tradition is that not all spirits seems viable in all roles.

That is to say, if take the idea seriously that your Health spirit will be summoned only for HEALTH related ideas, than making Fire your Health spirit type is a bit odd, and certain spirits work better than others in some cases.

That's where a lot of people make mistakes when designing new traditions. The spirit-spell association isn't one of practicality, but of belief. If your tradition is similar to some outlier fundamental Christian sect, they may very well believe that fire is used to cleanse the soul and burn away all impurities. In that case, Fire is very much linked to Health even though Fire Spirits are all but useless for healing.

[Adarael]

On some level, all spirits except Man and Task (I think) are useless for healing, because those are the only classes that have Innate Spell as an optional power. Guardian or Guidance might as well. But that doesn't matter, because that's a specific spirit power unrelated to the associations.

The spell-class associations only matter "Magical Services" - that is to say Aid Sorcery, Aid Study, Spell Sustaining, and Spell Binding. And for those, Force is the only thing that actually matters, so hey. Fire's as good as Plant for healing, or for combat. It really only matters for "what kind of spirits you want to be able to call up, stylistically". If I wanna call up my Water Spirit (who's my health spirit type) and have him kill some gangers for me, that's totally a valid use of him.


That said, I've never known a GM to allow players to pick all of their spirit types for a new tradition. It's always been a GM/Player collaboration.

[BlackJaw]

That's where a lot of people make mistakes when designing new traditions. The spirit-spell association isn't one of practicality, but of belief. If your tradition is similar to some outlier fundamental Christian sect, they may very well believe that fire is used to cleanse the soul and burn away all impurities. In that case, Fire is very much linked to Health even though Fire Spirits are all but useless for healing.

Ok, so say you make a tradition that feels "fire cleanses the soul", and associate fire with health.

Now your magician summons a "Health" Fire Spirit.

What exactly does it do that is "healthful" now that it's summoned?
It's Powers are "Accident, Astral Form, Confusion, Elemental Attack, Energy Aura, Engulf, Materialization, & Sapience"
It's skills are Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Exotic Range Weapon, Flight, Perception, & Unarmed.
I'ts optional Powers are Fear, Guard, Noxious Breath, and Search.

If you take the optional power "Guard' then it can do a single defensive or health-like option.

Sure, fire associated with health makes sense for the tradition... right up until you actually summon a fire spirit for a Health reason.

On the other hand: Fire cleanses makes perfect sense... for combat.

EDIT:
Adarael, you've got a very valid argument there. I hadn't thought about it the Aid Sorcery, Aid Study, Spell Sustaining, and Spell Binding limitations. It does make many more combinations viable, if a little odd.

[darthmord]

Ok, so say you make a tradition that feels "fire cleanses the soul", and associate fire with health.

Now your magician summons a "Health" Fire Spirit.

What exactly does it do that is "healthful" now that it's summoned?
It's Powers are "Accident, Astral Form, Confusion, Elemental Attack, Energy Aura, Engulf, Materialization, & Sapience"
It's skills are Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Exotic Range Weapon, Flight, Perception, & Unarmed.
I'ts optional Powers are Fear, Guard, Noxious Breath, and Search.

If you take the optional power "Guard' then it can do a single defensive or health-like option.

Sure, fire associated with health makes sense for the tradition... right up until you actually summon a fire spirit for a Health reason.

On the other hand: Fire cleanses makes perfect sense... for combat.

Well, you can heal that which ails you...

Or you can kill that which is trying to hurt you.

The end result is the same...

[Dakka Dakka]

One thing I noticed while working on a tradition is that not all spirits seems viable in all roles.

That is to say, if take the idea seriously that your Health spirit will be summoned only for HEALTH related ideas, than making Fire your Health spirit type is a bit odd, and certain spirits work better than others in some cases.

You are attributing way to much to the spirit categories. All they signify is which category of spells the spirit can boost with the aid sorcery, aid study, spell sustaining and spell binding services.
Even if the fire spirit corresponds to health spells you can still send it to grill your enemies. And the shaman's beast spirit can still go out and search for something.

[BlackJaw]

I thought there was a passage or optional rule somewhere in SR4A, Street Magic, or Digital Grimoire that talked about Spirits not being happy about being summoned for uses outside their "category." I don't think it was a hard rule, but more optional or stylistically. Summoning a Health Fire spirit to kill things might fit that concept.

Mind you I can't find that passage at the moment, so it might be all in my head, and even if it does exist I don't think it was a hard rule so much as a roleplaying aid or optional rule.

[Ol' Scratch]

I thought there was a passage or optional rule somewhere in SR4A, Street Magic, or Digital Grimoire that talked about Spirits not being happy about being summoned for uses outside their "category." I don't think it was a hard rule, but more optional or stylistically. Summoning a Health Fire spirit to kill things might fit that concept.

If such a comment exists, whoever wrote it didn't have a firm grasp of the overall concepts involved. (Wouldn't be the first time, either.)

Mind you I can't find that passage at the moment, so it might be all in my head, and even if it does exist I don't think it was a hard rule so much as a roleplaying aid or optional rule.

It's a completely silly rule either way. Sure, it might be appropriate for some traditions. But overall, the spirit-spell relationship has nothing to do with the spirit being any good at that particular category of spells. Using the Fire-Health one from my previous post, the magician of that tradition can simply see sending the fire spirit out to destroy his enemies as "healing the world" by purging it of non-believers.

It's all conceptual and based on perceptions and ideologies. The abilities and powers of individual spirits don't factor into it at all.

[Midas]

Spirits of Man are good for their innate spell ability. Guardians are good at combat, especially as noted for Possession traditions. Task Spirits are good for doing stuff. No wonder they are bossing the polling so far.

Plant Spirits are good for regeneration, esp. for Possession traditions. Guidance Spirits are as good as their divination powers are allowed to be. Air Spirits are good for movement, and are pretty hot at engulfing when it comes to combat. Earth Spirits can be good if you need to dig a hole or stop a car dead in the road.

[Midas]

Double post.

[Ascalaphus]

Don't only really big Great Form plant spirits get Regeneration?

[Blade]

Air spirits are often overlooked for combat, but their engulf power is very powerful, especially if you add an electric aura.
Other spirits might be powerful as well but all my munchkin players mostly rely on air spirits for combat.

[Ascalaphus]

I picked Air as the fifth because of Concealment and Movement. Although I had considered Weather Control for Water.

[UmaroVI]

I picked Air as the fifth because of Concealment and Movement. Although I had considered Weather Control for Water.

While those are both useful, Man, Task, and Guardian spirits can also cover those.

[Falconer]

Yes great form plants get regeneration... doubly nasty in a possession tradition. Though plant spirits are still pretty good even in materialization traditions.

And whoever did the writeup on task spirits needs shot.


The first sign of a twink tradition to me is generally thus... Posseession (because it's badly balanced compared to materialization), Intuition as a drain stat. Taking at least 3 of the 5 spirits from man/task/plant/guardian/guidance.

[Blade]

And whoever did the writeup on task spirits needs shot.

Whoever added 5 new types of spirits, most of them more powerful than the 5 basic ones (when spirits were already the most powerful entities), just when SR4 had - finally - simplified the huge spirits/elemental list, and with no fluff reason (Guidance and Task could be specialized Man spirits, all spirits kind can be Guardians, and Plants are just some specific Earth spirit (or Water in case of aquatic plants)).

[Ol' Scratch]

It's a matter of perspective.

I always found that the core spirits were incredibly lame and impotent, and that they focused too much on a specific concept (ie, "elemental magic"). The ones in Street Magic are more versatile and cover many potential traditions and can more easily be altered to fit individual concepts. Even if they didn't have the Skill/Divination/etc. abilities, they'd still be preferable to the boring ass elemental crap, especially since you have to choose five spirits per tradition.

[Ascalaphus]

So what's to be done?

Is it possible to enhance the "weak five" or somewhat weaken the "broken five" to make them more balanced? How is this best done, by increasing Earth, Fire, Beast etc, or by nerfing the others?

It would be nice if the spirits were balanced. Then you could make a mage with any selection of spirits without anyone decrying you as munchkin or intentionally weak (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)