[X] My Assistant

[HunterHerne]

I don't know how useful shape concrete would be, since most important things made of concrete (floors, load-bearing walls and so on) have a lot of rebar in them. You could make firing ports through them, but you'd still have to cut (or shape) the steel to get through it.

Still makes holes that can be a pain for opposition, or walls to block opponents.

[Ol' Scratch]

IF it is possible the question is also conversation of energy. It has to go somewhere if it can be moved. Unless we can squeeze it all into a very bad lead box.

The spell does nothing like that whatsoever. The exact effects are laid out in its description, just like with every other spell in the game. The material being shaped isn't improved/reduced/altered. Only its shape changes. Even if you did squeeze it all into a tiny little ball, that tiny little ball won't do any more inherent damage than it did in its original form.

[Christian Lafay]

The spell does nothing like that whatsoever. The exact effects are laid out in its description, just like with every other spell in the game. The material being shaped isn't improved/reduced/altered. Only its shape changes. Even if you did squeeze it all into a tiny little ball, that tiny little ball won't do any more inherent damage than it did in its original form.

Looking over the spell finally (not a magic man, sorry) it says that things can be extinguished. So IF Shape Radiation is possible you could just erase it... No?

[Ol' Scratch]

Looking over the spell finally (not a magic man, sorry) it says that things can be extinguished. So IF Shape Radiation is possible you could just erase it... No?

For as long as you sustain the spell, and only within the limited area of the spell.

[Christian Lafay]

That is odd. Not that i'm disputing it, but it is odd that a fire would burst back into existance after the spell is dropped... Damn you metahumanity! Start finding the science behind magic!

[Yerameyahu]

Is the principle that you can't mess with sub-parts of living wholes just gone now? I'd never let anyone Shape Bone, etc. The spells that violate this principle (like Turn to Goo) are nothing but errors.

[Ol' Scratch]

Is the principle that you can't mess with sub-parts of living wholes just gone now? I'd never let anyone Shape Bone, etc. The spells that violate this principle (like Turn to Goo) are nothing but errors.

Except that there's plenty of spells that do that, including most Health spells. Wounds are only part of a body. Diseases, drugs, and bacteria can't be seen and exist largely within a living body, yet they can be affected by spells. Tons of spells only affect the brain, and not just that but only small parts thereof. Fashion affects the target's clothing. etc.

[pbangarth]

Shape [Fire] is not actually a deviation from a restriction to material things. The flames are not pure energy, but rather gasses that have a lot of energy imparted to them, making them glow. Shape [Radiation] may or may not fit this restriction depending on the type of radiation. it would be interesting to figure out just what would happen if particles travelling at or near the speed of light were contained by magic. Where would the kinetic energy go? Turn to heat? Light?

[Yerameyahu]

A wounded target is a whole target, as are immune responses. I don't admit that there are any 'brain-only' spells. The target's clothing is not part of the target. None of these examples are anything like killing someone by Shape Bone.

[Ol' Scratch]

A wounded target is a whole target, as are immune responses. I don't admit that there are any 'brain-only' spells. The target's clothing is not part of the target. None of these examples are anything like killing someone by Shape Bone.

Well, by that logic then you have "target with bones," which is exactly the same as "wounded target." The target has [wounds/bones] and the spell affects their [wounds/bones]. Completely interchangeable.

There are also plenty of spells that only affect the brain or other organ/group of organs. Practically every illusion, most sensory-based detection spells, Influence, Control Thoughts ("the target has [thoughts] and the spell affects their [thoughts]"), etc.

Also, if clothing is considered separate, I guess you require magicians to cast multiple Invisibility spells when they want to go invisible? I mean, they have to cast it to cover every article of clothing, each weapons, each individual piece of gear they're carrying...

You're free to be in denial all you like (much like you did with Turn To Goo), but this has always been the case. The magical "law" about only affecting a specific part of a target has been broken on a regular basis by the design teams since the law was first introduced. It's just accepted because, frankly, the law is stupid and completely destroys many, many spells. I'm not even sure why they included that silly law to begin with other than to protect buildings and massive vehicles like aircraft carriers.

[Midas]

I looked into this earlier for an urban mage concept.

Shape Electricty and Shape Metal (given that shadowrun apparently uses Ferrocrete to make buildings. I wish I could find that thread on here ages ago that listed a bunch of common shadowrunverse building materials). Shape plastic may also be good.

Had a quick look for your thread, but me limited search-fu came up blank ...

Yeah, I think Shape Metal, Shape Concrete and Shape Plastic could be used to great effect in combination. Throw in Artisan with any of these and you could get a mage with a great day job as a sculptor ...

As for Shape Bone or Shape Skin, I wouldn't allow them as nasty offensive spells, although might as healing-type spells ...

[Dakka Dakka]

the only limitation is Line of Sight. You have to see, what you want to shape. I learned Shape Concrete during Ghost Cartels and had lots of fun and good uses. Making a tunnel, a ramp, a barricade, etc...

Just hope that no walls are covered with paint or wallpaper.

[Kirk]

Actually, for shape bone and such I think I'd bring in part of the spell's restrictions:

Loose material can be moved and re-shaped easily,
but material that is connected or reinforced (such as walls
or other material part of a structure) must be broken apart
by reducing its Structure rating by Force points per Combat
Turn.

So you want to shape bone? great - first you've got to break it apart from the body.

[Yerameyahu]

There's, again, no reason to say that mental spells are affecting only the brain. Healing wounds is healing the person. Ho do you even get LOS on their bones? Nonsense. It's totally different, not 'interchangeable'. Invisibility is irrelevant, because it's affecting something *more* than the whole, not *less*. We're talking about separately targeting and affecting an integrated sub-part of a living whole. Go ahead and list the 'many, many', btw, and we'll see if they're worth it. Turn to Goo sure isn't, and could easily be fixed.

[Ascalaphus]

I also don't think Shape Bone should work on internal bones. That basically makes it a non-Combat spell doing rather odd damage requiring optional special injury rules to work, which is icky. I'm not sure it's going to be Drain-costed fairly for the unknown damage it deals. Also the issue of LOS.

The entire spell is written in terms of Object Resistance, Power and Structure Rating, terms which only apply to inanimate objects. I think this is one of those cases where game designers actually consider "material" to be "inanimate material".

Don't get me wrong - a Twist Bone spell could be a cool spell to scare people with, and deserves to be in the arsenal of say, Blood Mages, but it should probably be built as a Combat spell, not created by twisting around this one.

[Dakka Dakka]

I also don't think Shape Bone should work on internal bones. That basically makes it a non-Combat spell doing rather odd damage requiring optional special injury rules to work, which is icky. I'm not sure it's going to be Drain-costed fairly for the unknown damage it deals.

Sounds like Vicissitude in oWoD.

Don't get me wrong - a Twist Bone spell could be a cool spell to scare people with, and deserves to be in the arsenal of say, Blood Mages, but it should probably be built as a Combat spell, not created by twisting around this one.

Nope. Combat spells are not spells used in or for combat but those that directly deal damage to targets. This should either be an illusion (if the target only thinks that its bones are warped) or a manipulation spell (if actual warping occurs). There will still be the LOS issue. Twist limbs will be much easier to accomplish via manipulation, because limbs are usually visible.

BTW. You could just change the fluff of (mass) Agony to get a mechanical sub-par version of the illusion spell or you change the description of the orgasm/orgy spell for more power.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

IF it is possible the question is also conversation of energy. It has to go somewhere if it can be moved. Unless we can squeeze it all into a very bad lead box.

Energy Talks? Who Knew? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For as long as you sustain the spell, and only within the limited area of the spell.

Seeing as how Shape Spells are permanent...

[Christian Lafay]

Energy Talks? Who Knew? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Fire does have that snap, crackle, and pop similar to scat music. Yeah, I know, a reach.

[Paul]

Fire does have that snap, crackle, and pop similar to scat music. Yeah, I know, a reach.

A lot of Shaodwrun is about the intent of an act.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Fire does have that snap, crackle, and pop similar to scat music. Yeah, I know, a reach.

Heh... No worries. Fire talks... Have you ever listened to the Beast?

[Ascalaphus]

Sounds like Vicissitude in oWoD.

Yes, and that discipline has got some serious issues with it too.

Actually, I think most game systems that use abstract damage (health levels, hit points, condition monitor) have trouble with non-abstract damage (shaping bone).

Nope. Combat spells are not spells used in or for combat but those that directly deal damage to targets. This should either be an illusion (if the target only thinks that its bones are warped) or a manipulation spell (if actual warping occurs). There will still be the LOS issue. Twist limbs will be much easier to accomplish via manipulation, because limbs are usually visible.

I suppose there's a case to be made for a Manipulation spell, but it should be a separate, new spell, not twisting this one to work on animate matter. With explicit description of the damage it can do.

[Christian Lafay]

Can't say I have. Been too busy with Shape spells and thinking about building a cheap dome. It would be like a giant auto-igloo.....

And building a new office tower by using all the broken buildings in an area.

[Modular Man]

Use "Shape Concrete" for the construction of a secret underground lair or for reinforcing abandoned buildings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Well, that's what I'll do aside from building ramps out of sidewalks and walls, maybe even the streets themselves, and digging through walls all the way. Just combine it with some tool to deal with other materials.
I'd say that concrete nowadays is one of the main building materials not just used in thin layers (like the metallic mesh in reinforced concrete). I may be in error, though.

[stevebugge]

Earth, Air, Fire, and Water would probably be allowed not so much because they are material or immaterial in a physics science sense, but because they are the traditional Elements in Hermetic Magic, and the ability to shape and manipulate them would probably (at one time) have been considered a basic magic skill.