[X] My Assistant

[CanRay]

Earth, Air, Fire, and Water would probably be allowed not so much because they are material or immaterial in a physics science sense, but because they are the traditional Elements in Hermetic Magic, and the ability to shape and manipulate them would probably (at one time) have been considered a basic magic skill.

What, no Shape [Heart]?

[Christian Lafay]

What, no Shape [Heart]?

You go sit in the corner. Right now.

[CanRay]

But I don't need to rock back and forth and cry for once.

[Stahlseele]

Magic does NOT work on PARTS of the whole.
You either form the complete body, or nothing at all.

[Christian Lafay]

Magic does NOT work on PARTS of the whole.
You either form the complete body, or nothing at all.

Magic doesn't. Ingenuity does. That's why you don't Fix a car. You remove the broken piece, fix it, and then put it back.

[Yerameyahu]

Except in SR4A, where you *do* Fix [Car], right? You also have the separate option of Fix [Part], AFAIK.

[Christian Lafay]

As far as I can tell, and I may be wrong with my lack of using magic in games, Fix seems to be near universal... Atleast in the book I have. Did they change it in 4A? 4 just says non-living material.

[stevebugge]

Except in SR4A, where you *do* Fix [Car], right? You also have the separate option of Fix [Part], AFAIK.

Let's not forget every players favorite Break [Rules System]

[CanRay]

Let's not forget every players favorite Break [Rules System]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif) Not *EVERY* player.

Oh, wait, I've never had a chance to play, maybe it is! BASTARDS THE LOT OF YOU!

[Ol' Scratch]

Magic does NOT work on PARTS of the whole.
You either form the complete body, or nothing at all.

Except for all of the exceptions where it does. As previously mentioned.

Also, that's a law for sorcery, not magic.

[Yerameyahu]

No, Christian, I'm not saying it's a specified spell (though you could presumably do so for reduced Drain?). I was just focusing on the fact that you target the whole thing, not a part. You can target a part, if (and only if) you remove it first.

[Christian Lafay]

No, Christian, I'm not saying it's a specified spell (though you could presumably do so for reduced Drain?). I was just focusing on the fact that you target the whole thing, not a part. You can target a part, if (and only if) you remove it first.

Oh, sorry. And that is what I was thinking actually. You still have to dismantle the car and then rebuild it, but you have parts that are arguably as good as new. Pop out the windshield, wave your fingers, no more chips and cracks or spiderwebs from bullet holes, if you can find all the glass that is. Big if.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh, sorry. And that is what I was thinking actually. You still have to dismantle the car and then rebuild it, but you have parts that are arguably as good as new. Pop out the windshield, wave your fingers, no more chips and cracks or spiderwebs from bullet holes, if you can find all the glass that is. Big if.

That is what Shape [Glass] is for. Why remove it from the vehicle to Fix it when you can just Shape it in place? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, you *don't* remove it from the vehicle to fix it. You just Fix the vehicle. Is this not the case?

[Christian Lafay]

You CAN fix the car as a whole but the limitation deals with the weight of the object. That being force X hits in kilograms. Easier to do it part by part. It comes down to can you Fix parts if you aim at a part or do you need to remove the part first. The way the argument seems to be going I assumed one would need to remove the windshield to fix it.

[stevebugge]

You CAN fix the car as a whole but the limitation deals with the weight of the object. That being force X hits in kilograms. Easier to do it part by part. It comes down to can you Fix parts if you aim at a part or do you need to remove the part first. The way the argument seems to be going I assumed one would need to remove the windshield to fix it.

What you can't reliably get to a combination totaling 1600 hits to repair your car?

[Christian Lafay]

What you can't reliably get to a combination totaling 1600 hits to repair your car?

I would be lucky if I could fix a BMX.

[Yerameyahu]

That's true, Christian. I thought the car was just a metaphor for any 'integrated' inanimate object. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Christian Lafay]

Nope, actually thinking of clean-up and repair after a run. My group has a problem with most of our pay going to replenishing our equipment or repairing it so I'm always on the lookout for ways to alleviate that. Be it Fixing the side panel on the armored van, Shaping the confiscated rounds we have no use for into calibers we need, and the like.

[Yerameyahu]

Calibers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It seems like that's a problem for many runners: no one would take the jobs if they cost more to do than they pay. :/ And yet, we do.

[Christian Lafay]

It doesn't help we do a lot of vigilante freelance.

[Ol' Scratch]

There's, again, no reason to say that mental spells are affecting only the brain.

"This spell implants a single suggestion in the victim’s mind."
"The caster seizes control of the target’s mind."
"This spell allows the caster to add, alter, or erase a single memory."

Healing wounds is healing the person. Ho do you even get LOS on their bones?

In exactly the same way you target their wounds. Or their thoughts. Or anything else that's only a part of the whole.

Want an example of another spell that already does this very thing? Oxygenate. Know why? Here's why. "This spell [oxygenates] the [blood] of a voluntary subject" vs. "This spell [shapes] the [bones] of a voluntary subject." It is no different. At all. Because spells have always operated like this in the game, from the very beginning, despite that one alleged (but constantly broken) law of sorcery.

Invisibility is irrelevant, because it's affecting something *more* than the whole, not *less*.

Except for the small detail of it simply being the other side of the coin. You're looking at it from one side doesn't mean the other side isn't there. If that spell affects "the whole," then any spell that doesn't is only affecting part of the whole. Whether it's Fashion, which only affects their outfit, or Heal, which only affects their wounds. Be they internal injuries, including broken bones, or external and easily visible wounds.

More examples? "Petrify transforms living tissue into stone-like calcium carbonate." Not clothes, not gear, not dead tissue, not implants; only living tissue. Just like Turn to Goo.

How about Makeover? "This spell creates a complete makeover for a voluntary subject, including cosmetics, hair, and nails. It even polishes teeth and eliminates plaque."

Go ahead and list the 'many, many', btw, and we'll see if they're worth it. Turn to Goo sure isn't, and could easily be fixed.

I have listed them. Repeatedly. Ignoring or dismissing them doesn't really mean much of anything. And Turn to Goo is, without a doubt, completely and utterly, only affecting part of the subject. It is a canon spell. It's not "broken." It's exactly as it was designed to be. And it's not unique in that regard.

[Yerameyahu]

Thoughts are not 'a part' of a person, and neither is their mind 'a part'. The spell is targeting and affecting 'the person'.

The other side of a coin is still a different side, one we're not talking about. We're talking about targeting a sub-part of a living whole, not about targeting a non-living super-part. You're healing the whole. You are not targeting their broken bones.

If you listed them before, it wasn't to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Makeover is affecting the whole, not targeting their plaque. Oxygenate isn't targeting blood, it's targeting the person. You can't even get LOS on their blood.

Turn to Goo is an awful anomaly, which no one ever said wasn't targeting part of the whole. That's *why* it's broken. Petrify is the same spell as Goo, just a variation. Things can certainly be designed broken in SR, as we know only too well. 'Canon' doesn't mean 'good' or 'right'. There is no reason those (weird, unnecessary) spells couldn't be fixed by making them affect the whole person (and clothes, though that is—again—not what we're talking about).

[Dakka Dakka]

You are misunderstanding the way magic works. Ol' Scratch. Yerameyahu kind of already said it but to make it clear: While magic can produce effects that seem to affect only part of a target (healing wounds, only altering physical appearance etc.). You cannot target a part of a whole: There is no way to choose a particular set of wounds or only use Fashion on the buttons of a jacket or only oxygenate a person's foot.

[Ol' Scratch]

You are misunderstanding the way magic works. Ol' Scratch. Yerameyahu kind of already said it but to make it clear: While magic can produce effects that seem to affect only part of a target (healing wounds, only altering physical appearance etc.). You cannot target a part of a whole: There is no way to choose a particular set of wounds or only use Fashion on the buttons of a jacket or only oxygenate a person's foot.

I never said there was. I said a spell could be made to affect someone's bones; the spell is targeting the subject, not their bones directly. In exactly the same way all of those other spells operate. Including, again, spells like Oxygenate which only affects their blood, or Petrify which only affects their living tissue.

The "law" doesn't make any sense because of that. Any spell that you describe as only affecting part of the subject can be worded so that it affects the subject themselves. And there's no "seeming" about it. They are only affecting part of the subject, such as Heal, even though you're targeting the subject as a whole.

The entire point of the law is two-fold anyway. 1) to prevent players from destroying buildings or massive vehicles by targeting strategic parts of it, and 2) to prevent having to come up with detailed called shot rules and hit locations. Existing spells break it all the time because they're worded in such a way that neither of those things are possible.