[X] My Assistant

[Nerdynick]

Just hope that no walls are covered with paint or wallpaper.

Luckily, most walls have AR paint, so just take off your AR glasses and you should be able to see them just fine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* What you just described isn't Shape [Bone]. It's "Mess With Someone's Bones". Such a spell would be fine, though totally different. Bones barely exist in the rules anyway, so it would actually be applying a penalty/DV to the whole person in the end. Fluff is just fluff; 'Sleep' just applies Stun damage to the whole person, for example. Petrify/Goo, however, would rightly be impossible to create if they didn't already exist in the game, because of grandfathering and error; they also have no reason to exist in their current form. Petrifying/Gooing Essence-paid implants wouldn't change the spells, except to remove stupid tricks, and make them obey the targeting rules.

[stevebugge]

*shrug* What you just described isn't Shape [Bone]. It's "Mess With Someone's Bones". Such a spell would be fine, though totally different. Bones barely exist in the rules anyway, so it would actually be applying a penalty/DV to the whole person in the end. Fluff is just fluff; 'Sleep' just applies Stun damage to the whole person, for example. Petrify/Goo, however, would rightly be impossible to create if they didn't already exist in the game, because of grandfathering and error; they also have no reason to exist in their current form. Petrifying/Gooing Essence-paid implants wouldn't change the spells, except to remove stupid tricks, and make them obey the targeting rules.

Which really does beg the unasked question: Why the hell did Turn to Goo return after a 2 edition hiatus? (Not implying that Yerameyahu has the answer in any way here, just a good time to ask)

[Ol' Scratch]

*shrug* What you just described isn't Shape [Bone].

I never said it was the Shape [Material] spell. I said a spell can affect the target's bones.

Fluff is just fluff; 'Sleep' just applies Stun damage to the whole person, for example. Petrify/Goo, however, would rightly be impossible to create if they didn't already exist in the game, because of grandfathering and error; they also have no reason to exist in their current form. Petrifying/Gooing Essence-paid implants wouldn't change the spells, except to remove stupid tricks, and make them obey the targeting rules.

And yet there they are, working 100% as described despite the laws of sorcery.

Heh. Actually, on a hunch, I just referenced the actual laws. Guess what; it's not one of 4th edition's limits to sorcery. Street Magic, "The Limits of Sorcery" sidebars on pages 159-160. Even better, those same rules specifically tell you that you can say "fuck it" to any of them if you want.

[Yerameyahu]

Shape [Bone] is what we were talking about. Sorry if you were talking about something different.

We've been over this: being RAW doesn't make it right. There are hundreds of examples of this.

I never called it a law. It's a principle.

*All* the rules in the whole book have the 'change this' caveat, so that's irrelevant.

[Ol' Scratch]

Shape [Bone] is what we were talking about. Sorry if you were talking about something different.

No, that's what sparked it. People were saying that spells can't affect a subject's bones because they're not in line of sight, amongst other weird arguments. Which is all patently untrue.

I never called it a law. It's a principle.

Call it what you will, it's not a part of 4th Edition's rules for sorcery. And, again, there's several spells that demonstrate it. No matter how much you want to stick your head in the sand about them. It's not like its only one spell that's an outlier.

*All* the rules in the whole book have the 'change this' caveat, so that's irrelevant.

Very few emphasize it.

[Yerameyahu]

It's true: you can't cast a spell on someone's bones per LOS, even if it were otherwise allowed. You can cast a 'My Bones Are Screwed Up' spell on a person, which is different.

There's basically (one) spell: Petrify/Goo. Your other examples are not targeting parts.

[Ol' Scratch]

It's true: you can't cast a spell on someone's bones per LOS, even if it were otherwise allowed. You can cast a 'My Bones Are Screwed Up' spell on a person, which is different.

There's basically (one) spell: Petrify/Goo. Your other examples are not targeting parts.

I've been saying affecting. Targeting != affecting. Turn to Goo, Petrify, Control Thoughts, etc. all affect specific parts of the target. You don't target them, you target the subject who has the parts you want to affect.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* I also/alternatively deny that your other examples are *affecting* parts, then. Heal, Oxygenate, and mental controls are abstractly affecting the whole, in a way that Goo fundamentally is not.

The issue is the weird fluff, as I said. A fire spell could conceivably burn a person to ashes, without turning their (cyber) implants to ashes. You wouldn't say, though, that the spell 'turns the person to ashes; cyber is not affected'.

[stevebugge]

I was thinking about this spell and I started wondering what you could use it on that would be effective and awesome.

Going back to the original premise of what could Shape [Insert Material here] be creatively used for.

Going more subtle Shape Paperboard, ever wanted to create a window in a box to see what's in it? Need a quick distraction add a hole to someones SoyKaf cup and watch as piping hot embarrassment ensues, turn an old box in to a makeshift one shot club.

[DMiller]

Just wondering...
Would any of you allow "Shape Water" to condense the water out of the air to make drinkable water in an area that doesn't have a normal water source? Of course I'm assuming enough humidity available in the air.

-D

[Paul]

Would any of you allow "Shape Water" to condense the water out of the air to make drinkable water in an area that doesn't have a normal water source? Of course I'm assuming enough humidity available in the air.

Yes. If nothing else because anyone creative enough to think of that deserves at least a shot of pulling it off.

[Yerameyahu]

That, and it's a meaningless impossible-to-abuse effect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

That, and it's a meaningless impossible-to-abuse effect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The crew around here can find a way to abuse anything.

[Christian Lafay]

The crew around here can find a way to abuse anything.

They thought they were safe. They never noticed the fine coating of cesium they stood upon. And never would, thanks to pulling that one drop of water out of thin air.....

[Dakka Dakka]

Just wondering...
Would any of you allow "Shape Water" to condense the water out of the air to make drinkable water in an area that doesn't have a normal water source? Of course I'm assuming enough humidity available in the air.

I would not. You can only shape water you can see. Water in the air you can't, unless the air is oversaturated. In mist or fog this would work IMHO.

They thought they were safe. They never noticed the fine coating of cesium they stood upon. And never would, thanks to pulling that one drop of water out of thin air.....

Why mot just pool the water over the vicims' mouths and noses? You wouldn't need Cesium for that.

[The Jopp]

The problem I have with the whole "shape" spell concept is in the descriptions - how *exact* do you have to be in the description?

Shape "stone" covers everything from loose sand to rock.

Should shape "fire" then mean anything from Lava to campfire? Or do i need shape stone+fire?

For convenience I tried to compile a few spells that included most of it.

Name: Shape (Object/Item)
Class: Manipulation (Enviromental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3

Shape spells can manipulate a specific object or item and mould it like it was made out of soft clay.

This spell allows the caster to shape a specific object chosen when creating/obtaining the spell (Wall, Ceiling, Vehicle, Door) or item (commlink, pistol, element or material (air, earth, water, fire, mud, lava, plasteel, concrete, tar, etc.) within range.

The caster must beat the material’s Object Resistance threshold (p. 174, SR4). The material can be reshaped in any way the caster desires, at a maximum Movement Rate of (net hits) meters per turn but not actually moved.

Loose material can be moved and re-shaped easily, but material that is connected or reinforced (such as walls or other material part of a structure) must be broken apart by reducing its Structure rating by Force points per Combat Turn.

This spell allows the caster to rapidly dig holes or create a doorway where one didn’t exist before. Each object/item requires a separate spell (Shape Walls, Guns, Armour, Doors, and so on). Items or Objects reshaped by the caster remain in that form for as long as it is sustained and then it returns to its normal form.

Name: Shape (Material)
Class: Manipulation (Enviromental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3

Shape Material is a modified version of the “Shape Element” – You will need a specific spell for each type of material. Below are a few examples.

Metal
All kinds of refined metal from Iron to Gold

Ceramics
Due to the diversity of this material a spell is needed for each sub-category - See Below

-Structural
Including bricks, pipes, floor and roof tiles Refractories, such as kiln linings, gas fire radiants, steel and glass making crucibles

-Whitewares
Including tableware, wall tiles, decorative art objects and sanitary wares

-Technical
Such items include tiles used in the Space Shuttle program, gas burner nozzles, ballistic protection, nuclear fuel uranium oxide pellets, bio-medical implants, jet engine turbine blades, and missile nose cones.

-Fused
Plascrete, Concrete, Plaster, Mortar, Tarmac

-Plastics
Rubber, soft and hard plastic materials (bags, model kits etc) and silicone.

The caster must beat the material’s Object Resistance threshold (p. 174, SR4). The material can be reshaped in any way the caster desires, at a maximum Movement Rate of (net hits) meters per turn but not actually moved.

Loose material can be moved and re-shaped easily, but material that is connected or reinforced (such as walls or other material part of a structure) must be broken apart by reducing its Structure rating by Force points per Combat Turn.

This spell allows the caster to rapidly dig holes or create a doorway where one didn’t exist before. Each object/item requires a separate spell (Shape Walls, Guns, Armour, Doors, and so on). Items or Objects reshaped by the caster remain in that form for as long as it is sustained and then it returns to its normal form.

[Dakka Dakka]

This is seriously overpowered. "OK I make the diameter of the barrels of all guns within the area 3mm smaller." 4 hits should be doable for most mages and all guns are worthless.

[Minimax le Rouge]

I would not. You can only shape water you can see. Water in the air you can't, unless the air is oversaturated. In mist or fog this would work IMHO.

You can only target something you have a LOS on it. Not somethink you can see. Water in the air, is just like air or like water when i'm underwater : i can have a LOS on it even if i don't really see it.

[Paul]

The crew around here can find a way to abuse anything.

That's what the GM is for. To facilitate cool story telling, and ruthlessly squash game stopping abuse.

[The Jopp]

This is seriously overpowered. "OK I make the diameter of the barrels of all guns within the area 3mm smaller." 4 hits should be doable for most mages and all guns are worthless.

How is that different from "shape metal"

Not to mention that highly processed materials (guns) would require a MINIMUM 5+ hits. So at minimum you need F6. Also, remember that it needs to be sustained for 15 minutes to be permanent.

And how is that different/more overpowered from shape earth where I can shape the rock someone stands on to act as a spear and impale him from ass to mouth?

Everything is overpowered in someone elses eyes. I can make a gun overpowered with very little effort wit´hout breaking any game rules. It's all about what level of play you go for.

Not to mention that it is MAGIC - its supposed to be bloody powerful as you break the laws of physics.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How is that different from "shape metal"

Not to mention that highly processed materials (guns) would require a MINIMUM 5+ hits. So at minimum you need F6. Also, remember that it needs to be sustained for 15 minutes to be permanent.

Your sustaining of Permanent Spells is WAY off. Here, let me help you with that...

The time required to make a spell’s effects permanent is equal to twice the Drain Value in Combat Turns.

So, assuming Force 6 (Though Force 5 WOULD work, you only have to meet the threshold of OR), you have 6 Drain. Which is 12 Combat Turns. 12 Combat Turns is equal to 36 Seconds. A FAR Cry from 15 Minutes.

Just Saying.

And I would put Guns at OR 3, not OR 5. They are Manufactured 'High Tech' Obects. I would not place them at 'Highly Processed.'

[Dakka Dakka]

So, assuming Force 6 (Though Force 5 WOULD work, you only have to meet the threshold of OR), you have 6 Drain.

Generally you are right how threshold tests work, but spells always require a net hit by RAW. Strange but true. I'd much rather use a uniform system for threshold tests. I guess one of the writers did not pay attention.

[Draco18s]

I just want to point this section out and then beat my face into a table.

Loose material can be moved and re-shaped easily, but material that is connected or reinforced (such as walls or other material part of a structure) must be broken apart by reducing its Structure rating by Force points per Combat Turn.

This spell allows the caster to rapidly dig holes or create a doorway where one didn’t exist before. Each object/item requires a separate spell (Shape Walls, Guns, Armour, Doors, and so on). Items or Objects reshaped by the caster remain in that form for as long as it is sustained and then it returns to its normal form.

Say, for instance, one has Shape [Stone] and is digging a tunnel underground and hits bedrock.

What's the Structure Rating of the North American Plate?

How is Shape [Walls] "rapid", if one has to spend rounds breaking the wall out of the overall structure of the building?

How is Shape [Walls] not just better than Shape [Concrete]?

[Stahlgewitter]

I just want to point this section out and then beat my face into a table.



Say, for instance, one has Shape [Stone] and is digging a tunnel underground and hits bedrock.

What's the Structure Rating of the North American Plate?

How is Shape [Walls] "rapid", if one has to spend rounds breaking the wall out of the overall structure of the building?

How is Shape [Walls] not just better than Shape [Concrete]?

Its "rapid" cause it would take much longer with a jackhammer (/powerdrill etc) and its silenced

Shape [Walls] is better if you only want to gain access or seal a room, but if you also want to create obstacles (zb panzerigel) or cover it would be pretty useless.