Full cyberbody and VR, Could I code up a Pilot Program to run my body? Options

[BlackJaw]

My hacker character has a full set of Cyberlimbs; Head, Torso, Full Arms (both), Full Legs (both.)

Unwired gives an example for a hacked cyberarm on page 102: "Seizing control of a cyberarm and using it to attack others, or even the cyberlimbed character." That sounds a lot like a matrix controlled arm.

Can I consider my own body partially pilot able via matrix? It sounds like if I was hacked, someone could control my movements. I don't see any reason I couldn't do it myself.

The more I look at it, the more I think the limbs could be controlled via matrix already, but because the body lacks actual Rigger Modifications, it can only be controled via software, not jumped into and rigged like a drone. Aditioanlly, the body lacks a Pilot program to make the limbs work togeather and function like a whole body or react to the enviroment. They don't likley sell such "body" pilots, so I'd have to code one up special I guess. I already have my various implants clustered together, so their is a single node that has full control of the body.

But in theory, I could make a pilot program to run my body while I'm in VR. I could issue commands to it and have it walk about, etc. It would be about as stiff as any other anthroform drone, but it would let me move about with my team while hacking in Hot Simm.

Or is this way nuts?

PS: I made the full body cyberware hacker for style and character reasons, not for this cheese. I've played in various runs without this being an issue. I'm just thinking through implications of his transhumanist life choices.

[Yerameyahu]

The short answer is 'no'.

The limb-hacking 'rules' are vague at best, but the safest interpretation is that you can control a limb only via Command, with all the limitations of it.

Logically, this kind of thing *should* be possible in a sufficiently advanced cyberpunk/transhuman setting. The rules just don't go that far at present. If you and the GM can work up something that's *balanced*, go for it.

[stevebugge]

The short answer is 'no'.

The limb-hacking 'rules' are vague at best, but the safest interpretation is that you can control a limb only via Command, with all the limitations of it.

Logically, this kind of thing *should* be possible in a sufficiently advanced cyberpunk/transhuman setting. The rules just don't go that far at present. If you and the GM can work up something that's *balanced*, go for it.

Yeah I think this is something that you want to leave out of Shadowrun (at least for now the tech doesn't support it), for Eclipse Phase this is not only plausible but regularly done usually with someone at the table saying "Go fork yourself"

[BlackJaw]

Yeah I think this is something that you want to leave out of Shadowrun (at least for now the tech doesn't support it), for Eclipse Phase this is not only plausible but regularly done usually with someone at the table saying "Go fork yourself"

I recall that Eclipse Phase mission. Doc used Sita's worker pod to fire an assault rifle at the OZMA combat forks.

[Fortinbras]

While the rules answer to this is a vehement "NO!" as a GM I would allow you to buy a program to do just that, only to find that said program refused to let go of your body once you wanted back in, as the program was actually the serial killer persona fix from Dreamchipper.
If you programed the thing yourself, I would claim you it was the serial killer twin you ate in the womb manifesting in code form.
In any event, I would avoid giving control of your body over to your GM.

[KarmaInferno]

The limb-hacking 'rules' are vague at best, but the safest interpretation is that you can control a limb only via Command, with all the limitations of it.

That can be harder than it sounds.




-k

[Jhaiisiin]

That's really hard

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, and this has been discussed before: how are you controlling the limb? Did you also hack some sensors or something? How are you targeting things? Beyond the magic of Command-works-on-anything, are you sure you're able to adequately control it (presumably, Command is a suite of common applications; maybe it doesn't include this)?

It was irresponsible to toss in some blurb about limb-hacking options in the book without answering these. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[3278]

Aditioanlly, the body lacks a Pilot program to make the limbs work togeather and function like a whole body or react to the enviroment. They don't likley sell such "body" pilots, so I'd have to code one up special I guess.

Well, they don't sell them for your specific body, but they sell them for anthroforms. At worst it seems a modification of one of those Pilot programs would suffice.

But in theory, I could make a pilot program to run my body while I'm in VR. I could issue commands to it and have it walk about, etc. It would be about as stiff as any other anthroform drone, but it would let me move about with my team while hacking in Hot Simm.

I don't see any reason why not, but I'm a famously liberal GM who cares less about the letter of the rules than the reasonability of the idea.

[BlackJaw]

Steve who chimed in before is one of the GM/Players in the Shadowrun game I roll in. His note "I think this is something that you want to leave out of Shadowrun," is essentially the rule that will govern my character.

[Falconer]

Yeah... cyberlimbs are cool... the thought of building a drone out of them is neat...

Then you realize the writers gave drones and characters radically different sets of statistics. (IE: drones don't have agility and reaction).

For a well understood and fully RAW approach.. look at the stirrup interface for Move-By-Wire. It allows you to rig biodrones... and nothing in the rules stops you from installing it in your decker. Though, lets say you have 5 matrix passes... does that mean with a mere MbW1 (2 passes) you can now do 5?! (or do you treat it like the technomancer... and you get 5 passes only 2 of which can be meat). There's still a lot of loose ends in there.

[Yerameyahu]

Nothing in the rules *allows* you to install it in your hacker, and his character concept is full cyber. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Also, Stirrup Interface is not, AFAIK, an add-on for MBW.

You nailed it when you said that the rules are a mis-match, though. Everything related to anthroforms and cyber-hacking is a quarter-baked mess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

So you're arguing a piece of cyberware published on page 153 of Augmentation is unavailable to PC's.... I don't know where to start with that one. It doesn't say anywhere the book that I can buy Move-By-Wire either for my character. It only lists the equipment and it's stats.

And yes you're right... it's not an upgrade. I wasn't saying it was. Only that it provides a means to remote control a biological entity and other than it's added remote control abilities and higher costs it's identical to MoveByWire.

The bit which is a mess is "A rigger jumped into the recipient will use his own skills at a -1 dice pool penalty when performing any actions". Does that mean you use stats of the recipient as if it were a drone (unlikely... since a biodrone doesn't have 'sensor' ratings and other necessaries). Only way I can make sense of it is to use the biodrones attributes+riggers skill-1.

I don't think balance wise it presents a huge issue though. Essentially you get a decker... who doesn't go full limp when he's in full VR. If you just take the -1 penalty above to heart... he takes a -1 penalty to all his meat actions but gains the ability to be full VR and interact with meat and VR at the same time. Something which otherwise is only available with some of the advanced technomancer echoes. Then you just need to be careful with how much he can act (so if he'd be able to do 5 passes full VR... and Stirrup1(MbW1) he'd still be limited to two meat passes.


The reason I originally looked into it was ages ago I considered playing an AI with a cloned Type O full body ($25000, p127) + stirrup module. Or a loyalty 6 contact with the module installed.

[Manunancy]

If I remember right the stirrup interface is expelictely mentioned as 'not yet existing for metahuman bodies' which pretty much nails it down out of a rigger's reach to puppet his body around. No mention is done of it's effects ont the brain's higher functions too - what works on a non-sentient critter might prove more detrimental when fitted to a meathuman brain.

On the 'rig your own cyberbody' angle, you'd probably better off having a look at the jarhead rules - hey're doing exactly that afterall. Though in my opinion to rig around a cyber combaitation that's designed to work with a DNI control like a drone you'd need to add the equivalent of a drone 'brain' to effectively coordinate and pilot the whole thing. And you'll probably want to invest in cybereyes and the like to act as sensors for your 'dronified' body. Otherwise the software will have a hard time figuring out what the hell it's doing and is happening around.

But like the stirrup interface it opens a can of very nasty worms by giving control of your body to somehting that can be controled by a third party. While retaining all the metahuman vulnerability to magical control.

[TheOOB]

Pretty much since the rules for cyborgs have allready been published, I would say anyone wanting to rig their body would have to abide by them.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, Falconer, I'm arguing that gear unavailable to metahumans is… unavailable to metahumans. Come on, man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's not like this is the first time someone thought of doing this. And there's a reason they thought of it: it seriously alters the power level of certain character types.

[3278]

Yes, Falconer, I'm arguing that gear unavailable to metahumans is… unavailable to metahumans.

Is this explicit, or implicit? I haven't read all the biodrone rules.

And there's a reason they thought of it: it seriously alters the power level of certain character types.

In what way?

[Blade]

Yes of course you can. Then you can rig your own body, and since you're controlling it with your brain at the speed of thought, you get 3 IP (5 if you have the good ware and gear) and +2 to all your actions. Because you're not just controlling the body, you ARE the body. It's as if your body was your own body.

Seriously? No.

[Yerameyahu]

3278, Blade gave a decent overview of the high points right there. It also lets you replace literally any skill with Command (or, worse, Command CF), which is of course boosted by things like Codeslinger, etc. It basically applies every drone munchkinry you can imagine. It's also removing the (few) meat/matrix limitations on hackers (which is why they want to do it).

[Dakka Dakka]

Not sure about the stirrup interface, I never really looked into the subject. A full set of cyberlimbs however is definitely a bad idea. The Skull and Torso are only shells i.e. there are no motors replacing the muscles. You would have to move your torso and your head in meatspace while jumped into the limbs.

[Irion]

Well, take an AI and make some human form drone the "host"....

[Dakka Dakka]

Well, take an AI and make some human form drone the "host"....

That's a different concept. I think the idea behind the initial concept was to keep the cake and eat it. Get the benefits of rigging and being indistinguishable from a normal metahuman without having a body lying around.

[3278]

3278, Blade gave a decent overview of the high points right there. It also lets you replace literally any skill with Command (or, worse, Command CF), which is of course boosted by things like Codeslinger, etc. It basically applies every drone munchkinry you can imagine. It's also removing the (few) meat/matrix limitations on hackers (which is why they want to do it).

I guess I'm just not clear on how that's significantly better than doing the same thing with a drone, or a cyborg, or a polar bear biodrone, or any of the other delightful things a hacker can use as a remote vehicle. Certainly, there are circumstances in which it'd be helpful, but considering the cost, the benefit doesn't seem like a drastic increase in power to me. Given the choice, I'd usually rather sit a few blocks away and be a blimp a kilometer in the sky than rig my own body into a place where there are bullets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Correct me if I'm wrong - sorry, still trying to make the transition to SR4 - but isn't the idea that you'd need a cybertorso, a cyberskull, and four cyberlimbs, in exchange for 5 IPs but only in Hot Sim? So you replace your entire body and the good news is that you're going to end up burning out your brain from it. The bad news is, if you have an implanted commlink, people can drive you about like a marionette. [edit: And those are Obvious cyberparts: costs get much worse if you don't want to look like the Terminator.]

The use of Command only applies if you're remote-controlling, and that means each Simple Action is a Complex Action, correct? Those 5 IPs aren't so useful, then, anyway. There are cheaper ways to get your attributes to whatever you can get Command to, and get five Simple Actions a round.

Cost? The stirrup costs and works like a Move-by-Wire system, so even a Level 1 costs 45,000, but it also requires 2.5 points of Essence. You're not going to do this with anything less than deltaware, so you're looking at 450,000 to get +2 Reaction, +1 Dodge, and +1 IP when you're in your body normally, plus the ability to rig yourself, and gets the essence down to 1.25. Add to that your delta-grade cyberbody and your delta Control Rig - no sense in doing it if you're not going to get that +2! - and commlink, and you're up to 1,470,000 nuyen and down to 1.275 points of essence, and that's assuming you're keeping your own eyeballs. And what's the Availability on a deltaware human stirrup?

It just doesn't seem like a massive portal to abuse. It doesn't even seem like a better alternative to rotodrones, much less to cyborgs. Or, for the application it's being discussed for [keeping the body moving with the rest of the team], a Segway.

[Irion]

@Dakka Dakka
As far as I understood it, it was have a methahuman body (would be fitting for the AI to) and hack while your body is taken care of by command. That is working just fine with the AI in the drone...
So there you still get to keep and eat your cake....

@3278

It just doesn't seem like a massive portal to abuse. It doesn't even seem like a better alternative to rotodrones, much less to cyborgs. Or, for the application it's being discussed for [keeping the body moving with the rest of the team] a Segway.

It is another way to get the same benfits.

[Yerameyahu]

It's a hell of a lot easier than being a cyborg, more capable than a Segway, and more *metahuman* than a rotodrone… while also not precluding those options. You can still do the blimp, and everything else.

Apart from the full cyber option, people have been discussing using MBW or Stirrup to skip that entirely. There are various methods. Even without a full cyber body, people have suggested that they can hack their own limbs (even just one) to get extra actions/dice/etc.

Yes, the Command *option* can't be used at the same time as rigging. That doesn't make the ability to get 6, 9, 12 on *any* skill useless.

Etc. You're not looking at the total package. No, it's not a perfect god-mode. Yes, it significantly increases the powers/removes the limits of certain characters.