[X] My Assistant

[Grinder]

You know what, I don't? I haven't used the new board software that much [or clearly, that well!]. What do you recommend?

Dude, if someone annoys you, go to his profile and set him on ignore (to be found under "Options").

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I don't see any reason this would be impossible, or at least by the standard as we apply it to Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If you take away the ruthenium part of it, and provide an entirely different type of solution, then there's no reason it can't work, whether through metamaterials or nanotubes or 3d liquid crystals. Most of these solutions would be much more practical on a surface whose relative shape the computer can know, so things that don't change shape [like cars and buildings] or things that change shape in a manner that's easily predictable [like armor suits] would be relatively simple, while complex shapes that change quickly [like flexible clothing] would be much more difficult [though not conceptually impossible]. Shadowrun made this same shift once before, technologically, from ruthenium polymers only working on hard materials to being able to use it on cloaks and whatnot.


Yep! Thermal Damping, p327, SR4a.

There is a bit of a problem with normal clothing, I admit. It shouldn't be simple to do. However, once we're at the level of individually adjustable 3d-pixels, then we can also have them know their own orientation and adjust accordingly. Now get this science out of my sci-fi (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

Thanks for the heads-up on the damping. I somehow completely missed it so far, don't ask me how...

[Saint Hallow]

Camo vs Chameleon... he's doing 1 or the other.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Awesome Indeed...

[KarmaInferno]

Proposed house rule:

Camouflage clothing is designed to make you less visible to others, by breaking up your silhouette and matching your surrounding environment. Camouflage must cover your entire body to be effective - if you have significant portions of your body or gear not camouflaged, any benefits from the camouflage are halved.

Static camouflage: Your clothing has set coloring or patterns designed to blend in to a specific background environment. You impose a -2 dice pool penalty to perception tests made against you in that environment. In other environments where the coloring or patterns clash and contrast with your surroundings, you instead grant a +2 dice pool bonus to perception tests made against you.

Adaptive camouflage: Your clothing actively alters it's coloration and patterns to match your surrounding environment. You impose a -4 dice pool penalty to perception tests made against you. Many clothes have the ability to alter their color and patterns, but they are not considered "adaptive" unless they have the sensors and processing ability to automatically constantly shift to actively match their environment.

All armor would fall under this set of rules. I probably wouldn't bother removing the chameleon suit or camouflage suit from the game, but since you can get the same effects on many other suits of clothing they aren't likely to be chosen much.

I am considering having camouflage also impose a -2 penalty on called shots, as it makes distinguishing specific body parts more difficult even if you do see the target.. What do ya'll think?


-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Workable.
I don't really see the need, but it looks good to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Midas]

Second Skin isn't a "thread that changes color." It's an outfit, and one specifically described as being made out of very specific materials and not the various materials mentioned in the general rule. The rule that you're erroneously referencing specifically states that Second Skin requires Ruthenium Polymers to gain the effect. Ruthenium Polymers is a specific rule above and beyond the general rule. It's not a synonym.

Fair enough, I stand corrected that Second Skin uses ruthenium polymers.

As to the prevalence of this colour changing thread in the SR 2071 multiverse, making it ubiquitous doesn't jive with my dystopian vision of the setting. A bit like the heat colour changing t-shirts that came out in the 80's, I would see it as a fringe fashion accessory for the chic and the serious clubbers, and being a fashion accessory it would be a lot more expensive than normal clothing, but YMMV.

However, I will reiterate my position that if you want crunch (i.e. reducing the opponent's perception dice), you gotta pay for it. As per RAW, this can be achieved using an appropriate Camouflage Suit or a Chameleon Suit. Nowhere in the BBB does it state that the colour-changing thread you pulled outta the fluff gives a penalty to your opponents perception dice. You wanna house rule that 0 new yen clothing can act as a Camouflage Suit and be modded to change according to the environment you are in go ahead, but it wouldn't fly at my table.

[Midas]

For the sake of this ongoing arguement, I'm going to point you all towards Attitude 160: Color Changing Clothing.

It is PRECISELY this, effectively being half-strength ruthenium polymer for 175 nuyen. You do have to pay for what you want. But its nowhere near as expensive as a full polymer+sensor suite coating like the second skin or a dermal sheath option has.

They do, however, stack.

I don't have Attitude, so I will take your word for it. Seems a little cheap given the price of full ruthenium stuff, and because it seems crazy cheap for the bonus it provides I would house rule it out of existance at my table, but YMMV.

I would definitely agree with Yerameyahu about it NOT stacking with other camo or ruthenium stuff though, that seems completely illogical and cheesiculous munkinery to me ("I'm wearing CCC under my Chameleon Suit, that's -6 to perception for the guard!"), notwithstanding the dicepool creep the devs often love to put in their books to increase sales ...

[3278]

Both these solutions illustrate the problem: the observer's position must be fixed in order for this "projection of what's behind" method [optical camouflage] to work, because of parallax. These systems are perfect illustrations of why advanced ruthenium invisibility cloaks are impossible.

And another illustration, this one more car-related!

[HentaiZonga]

Both these solutions illustrate the problem: the observer's position must be fixed in order for this "projection of what's behind" method [optical camouflage] to work, because of parallax. These systems are perfect illustrations of why advanced ruthenium invisibility cloaks are impossible.

Fanwank theory alert:

Maybe that's what's so special about Ruthenium Polymer - the images that can be projected from it are polarized and directional, so you can actually generate an image that changes based on the viewing angle. This would require multiple cameras in each direction (ideally one per emitter), but I believe that's explicitly described as part of what a 'sneak suit' does.

Putting it another way:

Standard 'color-changing' technology, like the LED-lined car, can only change the reflective or emissive color of a particular 2D segment (called a 'picture element, or 'pixel') of the covered object's surface area. It can't create per-pixel light that also changes based on the viewing angle. Ruthenium Polymer, when combined with a mesh of low-view-angle optical sensors, can do that - which solves the parallax problem, since it effectively reproduces batches of individual photons (complete with direction) as if they had passed through the covered object's volume without ever being absorbed.

[3278]

Yeah, that's the running theory upthread, as well, and it's at least a better solution than a flat surface that projects scattered light, although even a system like that can't work on a flexing surface, and would need a viewing angle of something like 180 degrees to even work on a surface whose exact size and shape were known. But: I still think it's a better explanation than the existing one, and encourage people to adopt it!

[Irion]

Actually I do not get your problem with the description as it stands. It makes you harder to spot, it does nor make you "predatorlike".
It does not call for a perception test, if none would be needed otherwise.
So if you walk by somebody, he will see you and he would not need to roll anything, because he would not need to roll to see a normal human walking by.

But if you are lurking 200m away from a person through a dense forest it makes you much harder to spot. (Which not really a wrong)

[3278]

You can certainly reasonably run Chameleon Suits [for example] in your game as "adaptive camouflage," as well, although then it's best to just disregard the bit about "proper perspective," because replicating the image from behind you badly is going to be worse than simply sampling the surrounding area and then picking a good camouflage pattern using that palette and those shapes; this is much closer to how actual chameleons [and cephalopods] work, and is a perfectly good way to run "ruthenium suits" in Shadowrun.

[KarmaInferno]

And another illustration, this one more car-related!

The recent movie Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol has a scene where they put up a display screen covering up a hallway, showing a 3D-recreated image of the hidden hallway as if it were empty. There's a camera system that tracks the eyes of the guard at the end of the hallway that they're trying to fool, so the image can be adjusted for parallax as the guard moves around.

The problem occurs when more guards appear. The system can only show one parallax viewpoint at a time, so the image looks weird to everyone else. As the system starts tracking multiple sets of eyes, it attempts to compensate by switching the parallax to each set of eyes, which makes it worse because now it looks like the hallway is bending back and forth. The guards of course approach the screen to investigate this weirdness.

The movie was surprisingly pretty good, as an aside. Was expecting the standard sequel degeneration, got a lot better.



-k

[Kolinho]

It seems like there would be some effect on the clothing's color shifting ability from damage. Particularly if the color-changing ability is a civilian mod, it may not react to well to bullets.

Given the abilities of programmable, color-changing fabric in the write-up, it seems like there should be a step between the camo suit and the chameleon. Either an optional armor quality or a separate item that costs a little more than a standard camo suit and gives you a little variety. Personally, 1200(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is a little too expensive for a piece of armor that you would need to repurchase for every different terrain you might encounter anyway, particularly when you add in all the individual mods each piece would need. I'd rather have a base set of armor (form-fit, vest and so on), and then wear terrain appropriate camouflage (whether it be a ghillie suit or tuxedo) over it.

There's also the down side to color-changing camo-- that once it gets hacked you're running around in a glowing, neon-pink onesie for the rest of the combat.

It would seem like the benefit to color-changing fabrics might be something as simple as it's never inappropriate. It may not be capable of giving you a benefit for camo, but it never gives you the penalty either.

One thing that has never made sense to me is that if the camo suit gives you a penalty if your in the wrong terrain, then almost all clothing should give you a penalty almost all the time. In my mind (and perhaps only there, but accompany me on this flight of fancy), you're better off with a suit of jungle cammies in a dark alley than you are in a white t-shirt. If a GM gave me the "inappropriate camo" penalty for a white t-shirt I'd understand, but it'd still technically be a house rule.

If I was houseruling, I'd just eliminate the specific Camouflage and Chameleon Suits, give any clothing with appropriate static coloration/patterning to get the +2 bonus, and the +4 to any Ruthenium Polymer type adaptive cloaking capable suits.



-k

Amid all the bitterness and pedanticism I found these posts, all of which make valid points.

I'm running a new campaign from next week and bearing in mind I like an easy life i'll be going with the following:

It takes skill and effort to create a camouflage pattern, so if you want changeable patterns, a program to run them off your commlink must be bought from someone who has gone to the trouble of drawing one - I'll go with 200Y per point of rating and one pattern per point, availability equal to the rating and freely available. Changing between patterns requires a simple action. Chameleon and Ruthenium exist RAW. Perhaps some more expensive armours may come with additional camo software for a wee bit extra nuyen.

If you put such on non-armoured clothing, a hit from a weapon or a hard fall will disable the pattern to its default. With armoured clothing, it is secure. As a changeable pattern will require some kind of link to your comm, either will be hackable, with a rating equal to as purchased and as such will be spoofable (thanks Mercer).

I'll also get rid of the +2 mod for inappropriate camo as it makes no sense other than as a balancing act.

edit: edited, thanks Yerameyahu!

[Yerameyahu]

'Pedantry' is the vastly more common term. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So, what's with, "Changing between patterns requires a complex action and a hit on a Computer + Software check"? To me, that doesn't make sense; much more complicated computer tasks are faster and easier than that.

[Kolinho]

Aye, could probably do without that. That was just brain vomit really, I really ought to think before hitting 'reply'. Guess I just wanted to put something out there to balance it a bit.

Loving the irony of pulling me up about my misuse of pedanticism (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[A Feast For Rave...]

Unless I missed something, because frankly I lost patience with the debate about page 3, no-one has actually quoted this; "Camouflage Suit: A full body suit with computer-designed environmental-pattern facsimiles. All have reversible day/night patterns. When worn in an appropriate environment, the suit inflicts a –2 Perception Test dice pool modifier to spot the wearer (if worn in an inappropriate environment, it incurs a +2 bonus instead). Also armored for additional protection." As the early debate centered around the versatility, or lack of, of this Armour I believe, and I could be wrong, that the phase to note is this "A full body suit with computer-designed environmental-pattern facsimiles." In particular the plural "facsimiles" meaning more than one "environmental-pattern". Now, if, for some reason you're caught out in the wrong pattern i.e. ran from "Woods" jumped over boundary fence and dashed into "Concrete Science Facility 3" you get a penalty, if you have the time to switch patterns that's another story. Only problem I see is they haven't included a change-over time for going between patterns.

Also my two cents on the original topic Camo is great for beginners Chameleon for lower Body characters later but nothing bets strapping "Ruthenium Polymer Coating: This modification can only be added to armor or clothing that covers the wearer’s whole body, like full body armors or suits. The ruthenium polymers are controlled by a sensor suite incorporated into the armor or clothing that scans the surroundings and replicates the images at the proper perspectives, providing the wearer with chameleon-like abilities and applying a –4 dice pool modifier to Perception Tests to see the wearer." Arsenal pg50 to a set of high end Milspec.

[Muspellsheimr]

What you missed was "Nov 16 2011"

[Daier Mune]

is there a difference in SR5 between camo and chameleon? is one hackable while the other isnt?

[Novocrane]

A lot of this conversation became obsolete when they released Attitude for 4e. It had colour changing as a clothing mod, with a specific cost.

5e, unless I'm mistaken, does not yet have camo clothing. It does have a colour changing mod - which isn't good enough for camo, oddly. (maybe it glows?)

[A Feast For Rave...]

Two questions slightly on topic can one use bolt on upgrades like Gel Packs over Ruthenium Polymer without mucking up their bonuses? Also Day/Night reversibility is cool but what does that do for twilight runs when you don't have either?

[Novocrane]

Can one use bolt on upgrades like Gel Packs over Ruthenium Polymer without mucking up their bonuses?

Why wouldn't you put the gel packs under the armour layer? I would have thought that makes more sense for something you want to absorb impacts, but not rupture.

What does Day/Night reversibility do for twilight runs when you don't have either?

Ask your GM. Either both are good, neither are good, or both are less effective. (or one is specifically less effective while the other works fine, but ...)

[Voran]

TWO THOUSAND ELEVENTEEEEEEEEEEEEEN!!