Chase Rules, Getting it right, wrong, or different Options

[HeavyJosh]

Hello all,

First time posting, lurking for the past couple of months. Was wondering about the chase rules in SR4A.

Here's how I read them:

1. Each pilot makes a vehicle test, modified by Handling.
1a. The winning vehicle gets to set the engagement range that round.
2. Each pilot rolls initiative (alternatively, all the people in a given vehicle roll initiative).
3. Everyone carries out actions.
3a. Pilots roll vehicle tests, and the successes they achieve are added to next round's step 1.

What I'm wondering is:

1. Am I reading this correctly?
2. Are there useful house rules out there? It would seem that running a chase scene with multiple opponents might get cumbersome.
3. Are the rules completely borked, or are they useful?

Thanks!

[hobgoblin]

Only maneuver action net hits are added to the next turns opening opposed vehicle test. And the winning driver of said opening test do not so much declare the range as gets the option to change it by one step (turning say medium range into either short or long).

As for the brokenness of the rules, all such inquires are likely to turn up a reply of "opinions differ".

[Jet]

We have used them and they work well as long as you remember a few things.

The chase rules are not tactical rules. It is not a 3 sec turn. They are used to abstract a dramatic resolution of a chase.
They are very simplified but do benefit from a little bit of set up generally in the picking of the terrain and the conditions. I like to have police pursuit statted out in general because as certainly as night follows day runners will be chased by cops. Nothing fancy just know the driving pools of the pilots and be familiar with the stats of the vehicles/drones will take you a long way down the road (no pun intended).

[Cain]

The rules are borked, simply because they can't really handle a chase between more than two vehicles. I use the opposed handling test for superior position, but range is determined by the speed of the vehicle and how well you do on the handling test, plus other factors (a helicopter will have an edge over a ground vehicle, for example). As written, it's entirely possible for a race car going top speed to be overtaken by a dwarf on a skateboard, simply because the skateboarder might do better on the opposed test.

True story: in SR4.0, we were in a sports car going at a top speed of 300. I had a Force 10 spirit use Movement on us, which accelerated us to a top speed of Mach 4.6. We were being chased by a go gang on choppers; good bikes, but not especially fast ones. The GM simply handwaved our getaway; but by the rules, we'd actually be doing worse, since we were going over our top speed and would suffer a penalty to the Handling test. Even if we won every time, it'd take us at least five minutes to be able to Break Off. The rules don't account for things like relative speed, positioning, or mobility (aerial vehicles vs ground again); they only allow for driver skill. It's not a bad idea, but it's totally unworkable in practice.

[HeavyJosh]

The rules are borked, simply because they can't really handle a chase between more than two vehicles. I use the opposed handling test for superior position, but range is determined by the speed of the vehicle and how well you do on the handling test, plus other factors (a helicopter will have an edge over a ground vehicle, for example). As written, it's entirely possible for a race car going top speed to be overtaken by a dwarf on a skateboard, simply because the skateboarder might do better on the opposed test.

I know that the faster vehicle gets a +1 to the handling roll for every 5 points of speed it has over the slower vehicle. I used the chase rules for a motorbike race, and found the same problem: more than two vehicles messes things up. I do like the fact that speed is less important than driver skill, since the rules are abstracted, but maybe a +2 per every 5 point speed difference might be in order.

Also, wouldn't it be better to run chases as an opposed extended test? What I mean by that is that every chase turn is an interval in an extended test, but each interval is also an opposed roll. The net number of hits the winner has over everyone else can be applied as a sort of "reach" modifier, putting the winning vehicle further out of range, or in a better position, or something. I dunno...

[Mercer]

The chase rules are not tactical rules. It is not a 3 sec turn. They are used to abstract a dramatic resolution of a chase.

This has always been my main disconnect with the chase rules. If it were just the one vehicle trying to catch another I could see how the Chase Turn would work, but there's always spirits, drones and runners all with multiple IP's who want to do things. Absent special circumstances (characters who are unable or unwilling to unleash all manner of hellfire on their pursuers or pursuees), how do you incorporate the chase rules with characters who should be acting in their normal combat turns?

[3278]

We avoid the situation entirely by never using the chase rules, but that's not that helpful a contribution. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Paul]

I've considered trying them out. I actually have a game in the works where we'd try the Chase rules. But yeah normally we just wing it. Not the answer you're looking for I am sure.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

We avoid the situation entirely by never using the chase rules, but that's not that helpful a contribution. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It would be if you also mentioned an alternative...

As is now, basically I do the same, but the consequence is that there are no chases. The PCs never get chased by the police, they simply get away. The only time something remotely similar happens is tailing someone or losing a tail, but that's an entirely different set of skills...

[UmaroVI]

For another hilarious example of how the chase rules are fuxxored:

It is easier to escape from 10 cop cars being driven by 10 police working together, than it is to escape from 9 cop cars being driven by 9 police working together and also, chasing separately and not working with the police, 1 cop car being driven by 1 guy who has the same exact statline as the police.

[ggodo]

For another hilarious example of how the chase rules are fuxxored:

It is easier to escape from 10 cop cars being driven by 10 police working together, than it is to escape from 9 cop cars being driven by 9 police working together and also, chasing separately and not working with the police, 1 cop car being driven by 1 guy who has the same exact statline as the police.

Pretty much this.

[3278]

It would be if you also mentioned an alternative...

We just stay in tactical combat, and use common sense to deal with pursuit situations. I know, still not helpful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mercer]

@3278 et al: That's what we've done as well, always kept it tactical. I've never figured out how to implement the chase rules at the table, but I was curious about other groups' experiences.

During a vehicle chase we use the handling and control tests with thresholds determined by the conditions, and use the Accel of the vehicle as the speed difference round to round. (Drivers can increase the Accel of the vehicle by making a control test, just as a character can increase their speed with a Running test.) A vehicle trying to force another vehicle off the road has to catch it and then it comes down to Opposed Control Tests. A lot of it we just make up as we go along. ("I saw this on Mythbusters," is a perfectly valid endorsement of a ruling during chase combat.)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

@3278 et al: That's what we've done as well, always kept it tactical. I've never figured out how to implement the chase rules at the table, but I was curious about other groups' experiences.

During a vehicle chase we use the handling and control tests with thresholds determined by the conditions, and use the Accel of the vehicle as the speed difference round to round. (Drivers can increase the Accel of the vehicle by making a control test, just as a character can increase their speed with a Running test.) A vehicle trying to force another vehicle off the road has to catch it and then it comes down to Opposed Control Tests. A lot of it we just make up as we go along. ("I saw this on Mythbusters," is a perfectly valid endorsement of a ruling during chase combat.)

I think this is a good idea. I would want to take a block of real city map, possibly just off google-maps or the like, and then keep it tactical just using an approximate scale. Maybe extend the combat turn length a little once the distances get longer.

The stupid thing is that the speed/accel rules in tactical combat also suck.

[3278]

I would want to take a block of real city map, possibly just off google-maps or the like, and then keep it tactical just using an approximate scale.

That's what we do. We have a large laminated paper map with a square grid for dry-erase block maps, and as distance and speed change, the map gets redrawn at new scales when necessary. We also use Google Earth a lot,* to provide photo-realistic location-appropriate block maps, both for vehicle combat and just for area mapping for recon or whatever.

The stupid thing is that the speed/accel rules in tactical combat also suck.

That's my fault. I knew better, and had a chance to fix them, ten years ago, and I squandered it. Mea culpa on that one.

*We use it enough that I'd like to build a touchtable to use when we're gaming, and I've started gathering hardware, but came up against a hard stop at the expense of a short-throw projector. We have the IR cameras, and we have a projector, but it's not short-throw, so we can do multitouch, and we can do projection, just not on the same surface.

[Mercer]

I rarely break them out anymore (but then, we rarely get a chance to play these days), but the way we tracked vehicles in combat was to use my boyhood collection of Micro Machines. I had planned to update that system using some business card-sized magnets and some vehicle counters from an old Cyberpunk boxed set I picked up on the cheap so we could do chase scenes on our magnetic dry erase board, but that plan fell by the wayside.

There's all sorts of campaign types that would benefit from a really good set of vehicle rules; DeathTrack/Car Wars trid shows, Mad Max-style running gun battles in a variety of 6th World hellholes, convoy raids and go-gang street wars. But alas.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I rarely break them out anymore (but then, we rarely get a chance to play these days), but the way we tracked vehicles in combat was to use my boyhood collection of Micro Machines. I had planned to update that system using some business card-sized magnets and some vehicle counters from an old Cyberpunk boxed set I picked up on the cheap so we could do chase scenes on our magnetic dry erase board, but that plan fell by the wayside.

I also use a board like that on the table, it's just usually completely covered in character sheets, pizza boxes and the like.

There's all sorts of campaign types that would benefit from a really good set of vehicle rules; DeathTrack/Car Wars trid shows, Mad Max-style running gun battles in a variety of 6th World hellholes, convoy raids and go-gang street wars. But alas.

Tell me you're old enough to know the original DeathTrack computer game? that was so fucking awesome. It was even in 3D and had coloured boxes for cars. And on our computer at the time it ran about double the speed it was supposed to, because internal clocking was not yet invented... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[hobgoblin]

For another hilarious example of how the chase rules are fuxxored:

It is easier to escape from 10 cop cars being driven by 10 police working together, than it is to escape from 9 cop cars being driven by 9 police working together and also, chasing separately and not working with the police, 1 cop car being driven by 1 guy who has the same exact statline as the police.

While i can't be bothered to work out the details of why, i suspect this is related to the teamwork rules and the basic odds of the dice rolls..

In the end i think the basic disconnect is that unlike tactical, the battlefield is constantly moving in one direction or other. Think of it like having a fight on top of a very large treadmill with random objects being dropped in from time to time. As such, the various people involved need to find windows of opportunity for their actions. Like when the street clears of traffic for a couple of seconds so that their weapons have a clear line of sight.

Seen this way we again see that IP is not so much about gross movement speed as it is about sensory processing speed. It allows people to make use of shorter openings that would pass a non-wired person by.

[Mercer]

Tell me you're old enough to know the original DeathTrack computer game? that was so fucking awesome. It was even in 3D and had coloured boxes for cars. And on our computer at the time it ran about double the speed it was supposed to, because internal clocking was not yet invented... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

I am. They updated that game a few years ago with Deathtrack: Resurrection. I got it for $3 out of a discount bin, but there was a reason it was in the discount bin. The original is better.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I am. They updated that game a few years ago with Deathtrack: Resurrection. I got it for $3 out of a discount bin, but there was a reason it was in the discount bin. The original is better.

Hah, hilarious. I was admittedly a kid when I played it, but at the time it was fucking awesome. There is also no other game quite like it to date. I mean there were others with machineguns, but I don't think any other game ever crammed that many weapons into a single car (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . (I may be wrong about this... I just don't KNOW any other games like that.)

From memory: You had machineguns, these were good, up close
Then lasers, I don't remember if they also ran out of ammor or not
Then Rockets, with pretty limited ammo,
And then these ground-hugging things that just followed the road

And weren't there Caltrops AND mines, too? And all sorts of spikes which I don't remember doing much.

And everything in three degrees of effectiveness... good times. And at that time at least you didn't need to do stunts and hit powerups and crap like that - just win money, buy upgrades, and blow shit up.

[Mercer]

And then these ground-hugging things that just followed the road.

Those were called Terminators, if memory serves. They were skateboards with explosive charges attached.

The thing I liked about DeathTrack was it was a really good driving simulator. It reminded me of the old Hard Drivin' video game. And then it added to that mines, machine guns and ramming plates. Those were good times.

The original Carmageddon was also a favorite of mine. I wanted to combine this all into my Deathgame 2062 idea of a bloodsport reality show. The racing part would be a combination of those games plus movies like the Cannonball Run and Mad Max films, but if there is one thing that's true of all editions of SR, they've never had particularly easy to implement vehicle rules.

[Midas]

During a vehicle chase we use the handling and control tests with thresholds determined by the conditions, and use the Accel of the vehicle as the speed difference round to round. (Drivers can increase the Accel of the vehicle by making a control test, just as a character can increase their speed with a Running test.) A vehicle trying to force another vehicle off the road has to catch it and then it comes down to Opposed Control Tests. A lot of it we just make up as we go along. ("I saw this on Mythbusters," is a perfectly valid endorsement of a ruling during chase combat.)

Nice, I might try this out on my table if a chase comes up.

Just to throw another spanner in the works, the open highway is fine, but anyone have a good way to resolve chases weaving through traffic without just increasing the number of manouvres/control tests?

[Paul]

Those were called Terminators, if memory serves. They were skateboards with explosive charges attached.

Are you discussing the "Land Shark" missiles introduced in the Lone Star source book?

[Mercer]

Maybe. Terminators were the explosive skateboard weapons from the old DeathTrack video game, but it wouldn't surprise me that something similar turned up in SR. This seems relevant. (This is maybe my second or third favorite car chase ever.)

As for vehicle chases in various conditions, I use the Threshold Table and Terrain modifiers from the book. There was a house rule we used in previous editions that gave a +2 penalty to Control Actions past the first, and I'd probably do something similar in SR4. The idea is that the driver has to use one of his IP's for a control test for whatever action he wants the vehicle to perform that round (go straight, make a turn, pull a Rockford), and if he wants to change that with a subsequent IP within the same round he'd have a -2 penalty on that second maneuver (and -4 for the 3rd, and so on). Crash tests don't incur the -2 penalty, but they do suffer from it. (If the driver has used two IP's to control the vehicle, all subsequent crash tests that round have the -2 penalty.)

The driver's control test covers whatever movement the vehicle makes in the combat turn, and so it may cover making several maneuvers. If a vehicle is traveling at a speed of 90mpt, the driver may wish to make a right turn at an intersection followed by a hard left into an alley, all within the 90m the car will travel that round. Rather than treat each turn as a separate test I'd set the threshold based on the difficulty and conditions of the whole round's movement.

[hobgoblin]

Nice, I might try this out on my table if a chase comes up.

Just to throw another spanner in the works, the open highway is fine, but anyone have a good way to resolve chases weaving through traffic without just increasing the number of manouvres/control tests?

I thought that was what the terrain modifier was for...

Edit: note to self. Read thread first, then comment perhaps...

I am getting the feel that the problem people are having with the chase rules are that they do not mesh with making highly detailed action movie descriptions of events happening.

While the GM and rigger player would love to describe every last pedestrian, vehicle and whats not dodged, this is handled by the terrain modifier to the pr turn vehicle test as well as having the driving character spend a single complex action just driving.

Similarly, the maneuver roll is for when the character attempts to do anything that will give him a edge vs the opposition, be it taking sharp turns down alleys, forcing a some other car to swerve into the path of the opposition or anything else that may fit.

Basically, the chase rules have abstracted away from the itty bitty details of the chase. But this may well get in the way of the GM trying to get a white knuckled description of events. And this is where i wonder if the real conflict lies, not in the details of the rules themselves.