Pimped Beginning characters, And the players addicted to them.... Options

[Zazen]

That'd require him to know the rules at least as well as two dozen bloodthirsty dumpshock posters :P

It's not always about points. Knowing that you need to roll twelve 9's on that spell, that you can't stack this and that, that you can't take Bonus Attribute 16 times, etc.

[Sphynx]

Sorry for such a late response. Avoided initially because I completely disagree with the GM teaching the player a lesson sort of scenario.

Personally, there's nothing in the world wrong with uberness in a character. The game is not setup so that uber always equals "win". I don't see what the big deal is if he's playing uber. Attributes don't mean as much as you seem to think, even a 10 in everything won't be all that helpful (and as a troll, it's not even possible). It's how you play. I would LOVE a player who had a bad-ass troll in my game, the ones that worry me are riggers with a bunch of drones, or mages with a ton of spirits. You don't know how close I come in many games to adjusting mana warps so that Watchers just refuse to show up because a group of those can ruin any game.

Problem is never with the player, it's with the person who can't handle the player. ;)

Sphynx

[Zazen]

[TinkerGnome]

I say don't bother swatting down the character with an anvil. It's not going to do any good, since he'll only come back with a stronger one. Instead, inforce the realities of the game world and the rules system.

Trolls are second class citizens in most cases. A troll with a charisma of 1 and an intelligence of 2 is a second class citizen in any case where he isn't wearing a uniform (and even then, he gets to go in first most of the time). Does he ever go anywhere public outside the barrens? Don't StufferShack clerks hit the panic button when he comes lumbering in through their door (likely taking half of it with him)? Most of, if not all, of his weapons are illegal and he'll end up in a lot of trouble.

Overdoing it on the reflexes? Aren't there rules for acting before you can think and doing things you don't necessarily want to do? A couple of runs where he accidently shoots the person they're trying to retrieve or another team member should drive home that there are disadvantages along with being super-wired.

Big sustained spells and foci? I'm a proponent of commonplace alarm wards in many public places (with Shedim about, especially) and monitored (afordable) astral security firms (check this old thread here for some ideas I put forth on this a long time ago). The mage drops by to take a peek and sees a huge force 6 spell standing in the room. He gives a phone call to the owner of the establishment and informs them. If there's not a lonestar or corper standing there, someone's likely to have to answer some questions. This kind of think wouldn't punish the casual user, but someone who keeps a high-force, illegal spell up for long periods of time is going to get hasseled if not worse. Of course he can blast his way out, but he'll leave astral residue and/or DNA behind. Nothing says "You screwed up!" like ritual sorcery (blast a cop and you'll find this out pretty soon).

Another alternative is to try a ganger campaign. Have the PCs create characters off of moderately-low karma Becks. If he still comes out uber... that's when it's called a mercy killing . :evil:

[Joker9125]

I dont have one of his sheets but allow me to demonstraight the kinds of characters usuially played. This is just my attempt to recreate his munchkin-fu I am not fimilliar wiht alot of the cyberware out their but I am also not the head GM but I do GM quite a bit. Ill give a full character sheet complete with edges and flaws gear ect.

Using point system.
Troll 10pts
Resources 1,000,000 :nuyen: 30 pts
Attributes 32 64 pts
Active Skills 19 19pts

Edges/Flaws
Esceptional attribute Str +2
Bonus Attribute Int +2
Allergy Common Moderate Table Salt -4

Unaugmented Stats
Body 12
Quickness 4
Stregnth 11
Charisma 2
Intelligence 4
Willpower 5
Reaction 4
Initative 1d6

Augmented with listed cyber/bioware
Body 18 Bone lace titanium(A) used 75,000, Derman sheath(A) used 120,000
Quickness 8 Muscle Toner 4 100,000
Stregnth 15 Muscle Augmentor 4 80,000
Charisma 2
Intelligence 4
Willpower 5
Reaction 10 wired reflexes 1 (A) used 55,000, Reaction Enhancement 2(A) used 120,000
Essence .44
Initative 2d6

Skills
Clubs/Claymore 5/7
Brawling 6
Bike/Harley Scoprion 2/4
Etiquitte 3

Gear(all gear is troll mod)
Dikote Claymore (Str+2 D)
Hardliner Gloves (Str+1 M Stun)
Form Fitting Full body Suit (Bal 4 Imp 1)
Secure Clothing(Bal 3 Imp 0)
Secure Ultra vest(Bal 3 Imp 2)
Secure Long Coat(Bal 4 Imp 2)
Total armor
Balistic 8 (9 With cyberware)
Impact 4 (5 with cyberware)
Cell phone
Harley Scorpion

***EDIT*** the mage is comming next

[TheScamp]

Man, that guy is so hosed when the assault rifles start opening up from the 2nd floor catwalk.

[GunnerJ]

...or when he eats anything with salt.

Actually, how the fuck is this character able to live? Salt is necessary for metabolism!

[Shockwave_IIc]

[Joker9125]

There is probably more I could do to simulate his characters but im to tired at the moment and still have a mountain of projects to do so this is the best I can do at the moment

(Note: Please forgive any small error or typo i dont want this to turn into a huge flame fest over a small mistake of math due to my weariness at the time of this post)

Using point system.
Dwarf 5pts
Sorcerer Adept 25 pts
Resources 650,000 :nuyen: 25pts
Attributes 25 50 pts
Active Skills 18 18pts

Edges/Flaws
Exceptional attribute Will+2
Bonus Attribute Will+2
Allergy Common Moderate Table Salt -4

Stats
Body 5
Quickness 3
Stregnth 4
Charisma 3
Intelligence 6
Willpower 9
Reaction 4

Initative 4d6

Skills
Sorcery 6
Brawling 6
Aura Reading 2
Etiquitte Magical 1/3

Spells/Foci
Stunball 6
PowerBall 6
ManaBall 6
Increase attribute will 4 Sustained
Force 4 Power Focus
Force 1Sustaining focus +3d6

Gear (all gear is Dwarf Mod)
Hardliner Gloves (Str+1 M Stun)
Form Fitting Full body Suit (Bal 4 Imp 1)
Secure Clothing(Bal 3 Imp 0)
Secure Ultra vest(Bal 3 Imp 2)
Secure Long Coat(Bal 4 Imp 2)
Total armor
Balistic 8
Impact 4
Cell Phone

***EDIT*** the table salt thing is just for an example of a food based flaw that all the PC's like so much

[TinkerGnome]

There's nothing wrong with that character, whatsoever. [edit] The troll, that is. [/edit]

You know, provided he never intents to leave the Barrens. How does he move around town? Because if he's not hiding in a van or something, he's in for a LS pickup pretty fast. The sword alone is reason enough for him to have to be taken in for questioning.

God help him if he tries to resist.

Use the game setting, Luke! Trogs with claymores are NOT welcome in civilized areas.

[Baatorian]

[TinkerGnome]

By the way, I'm shocked that the dwarf isn't an albino. We had one in our game once (even more twinked than that). He made the mistake of dropping his invisibility spell outside while a sniper was waiting for a target... Oh, and there's way too much armor there on both characters. How's he walking around with that kind of penalties?

[Joker9125]

[TinkerGnome]

To moderate what I've said previously, DON'T hammer him because it's him. Hammer him for doing things that you would/should hammer ANYONE for. That and make sure he gets bored fairly often (if he's only good at melee combat, for instance, just let it be not so common for a few games... I'd wager you have to go out of your way to make it possible anyway). Sure, he's a god at it, but what's he doing while the rest of the team has legwork and planning to do (50% or more of the game sessions, usually)?

That's actually what kicked me out of "uber-power-gamer" mode. I realized that a character who can do a bit of everything can still be good, and he'll have a lot more to do a lot more of the time. You can still power-game a well-rounded character and be good at a lot of things (but amazingly powerful at none). Playing smart, not hard, is the way to go and most people eventually figure that out.

[snowRaven]

I personally don't find either of the characters too over-the-top, but there are a few easy ways of targeting the weaknesses of each character:

First, as has been mentioned, Decrease Charisma spells - they'll work wonders!

Second: second only to 'geek the mage first' is 'geek the troll first'.

Third: the cyclops will stand out, and because he is a freak alot of people may even refuse to deal with him personally. If he participates in any crime where there's witnesses, LoneStar will be looking for a large cyclops wielding a claymore. After a few crime scenes like this, it'll be prioritized. Send a few Bounty hunters after him (and the rest of the team, of course...)

Have the team face a threat they can't handle. Target the cyclops and bring him down (either by said Decrease Charisma spell or by magic or guns) and watch the rest of the team try to carry the troll out of there... :vegm: Also, remember that trolls are big and hard to miss, and cyclops are even bigger! A -1 to the TN to hit them in ranged combat is approperiate! And if he takes cover, insist on the difficulty of finding adequate cover for something that huge!

In melee combat, have the Cyclops meet opponents with Close Combat (Cannon Companion martial arts rules) - his reach won't mean squat! Or throw a phys ad at him - even as a starting character you can have a phys ad wielding two weapons rolling 24 dice on an attack EASILY! Give the adept counterstrike as well and watch the fun when the cyclop attacks the adept...

The dwarf is harder to target, but dwarves have x2 running multiplier, and if the team ever needs to rush forward - or flee - the dwarf will fall behind unless someone carries him.

Since both of these characters lack skills like Athletics and Stealth, they can get into a drek-load of trouble! In a recent game I had a minotaur try to scale a building - he was too big to fit in the old-style fire escape, and so he had to try to climb up the outside - it took a few combat turns for him to roll those eights(!) with his quickness. Sneaking around, most people would notice either character. And don't underestimate the use of Wards and patrolling Spirits to deal with the mage. Or even simply attacking spirits. Have the opponent security mage send his four bound elementals into the fray. That should tie up the dwarf for awhile...

EDIT: Also, the mage knows only area spells - he is useless s magic support in tight quarters (and the cyclops will have problems walking - let alone swinging his claymore - in most pre-gblinization built buildings.

The trick isn't to hurt and kill the characters, but to target their weaknesses to make the player realuze that there is alot of things he is sacrificing by having these one-trick ponies. Once his characters start falling behind, being left behind, or being useless for the situation at hand - hopefully he will realize his mistakes and make more wellrounded characters.

[Sphynx]

Those characters are NOT Run-Fu worthy, if that's his character, the rest of the group should learn to be more than kinder-teachers. This isn't a problem player, it's a problem gm. :P

Sphynx

[Solidcobra]

now, i have to disagree, what would cause a enemy mage to use a decrease charisma spell on anything?
"Hey, he looks ugly! if i use decrease charisma, a spell that no-one would use since we all want sexy people on earth, on him he would be useless! yay!"

WHO would ever think that? in combat, charisma is the last thing one would think about.... his body, willpower, intelligence and quickness are likely targets, but not charisma...... besides, he can't see the troll/ork/ugly human behind all that armor, so he can't know of he's ugly or not......

decrease charisma is just a way to directly hose a character with no in-game rationality......

[BitBasher]

Because SolidCobra, many, many combat centric "muscle" positions have low charisma, and if you cna drop it to zero he becomes a vegetable. It's a FAR easier soloution to dropping trolls than trying to damage them. Security mages would know this and this makes that spell a "secret weapon" against specific stereotypes.

This alone, and the fact that it would work at low force, makes it pretty damn valuable. Against mundanes with a cha of 2 or even 3 or less this spell is better than one dedicated to paralyze them or knock them out.

[Solidcobra]

*shrug*, one must ask oneself: who the flying frag started with casting a "uglifying spell" on a troll in combat, knocking him out and thinking "AHAH! it was the uglifying spell! let's use it against ugly people we see!"

i hate extreme-force manabolts and decrease attribute: charisma spells, they are the weak GMs way of saying "look at me, i can't handle a combat character being good at combat!"

and yes, i stay away from them when i GM
and yes, most players who play stupid combatants still die

[Sphynx]

SolidCobra is right though. Characters don't think "Trolls have low Charisma, I'll make it lower to knock'em out" Only players do. And decrease Charisma shouldn't KO anyone anyhows, one of those "should house rule it" kinda things.

Decrease Charisma is, as SolidCobra said, just a cheezy way to hose a character with no in-game rationality.

Sphynx

[Dax]

Joker I have to admit, and agree with most of my peers on this issue, that the main problem stems from the point that the player is a combat junkie to begin with. I also have to say that he may be missing a few very important points in reguards to the background of the world. Such as the inherint racisim that seems to crop up almost daily. Case in point.

A new player was coming into my game, and he wanted to play an Elf of Japanese decent. Now I had shown him the Shadowrun timeline and told him to read it before his first session as he was new to the game, and therefor expected a Japanese elf that had come from a family that was raised in Seattle or something, beacuse he'd know Japan's opinion on Metahumans and such.

Needless to say, I was floored when his character showed up for his first run in a full fledged kimono acting like he was on his way to a tea ceremony with the fragging emperor himself! Then there was the whole issue of trying to hide an SMG in the sleeves of the damn thing (which can't be done, I don't care if any Kung Fu/etc movies say differently), and hiding a Samurai sword down the side of the garment (which would have made walking difficult to say the least). I found out later that he hadn't even bothered to read the time-line, and said character faced the wrath of Shaiwaise sometime later.

I think you may have something slightly similar in this scenario. You got a player who may be so focused on all the cool toys he can get, that he either A.) doesn't know or B.) doesn't care about some of the important facts about the setting.

I would suggest talking to this player first, and then if the carrot doesn't make any amount of change, then whip out the hammer and give him what's coming to him.

[kevyn668]

The character actually doesn't look that broken. I hate to admit it--if I played w/ this jerk, I'd probably find a reason for my character to kill him myself. Be that as it may....There are a few minor things that could be done to tweek it back towards the realm of roleplaying (as opposed to ROLLplaying).

As has been said: keep the 60 BP max for Attributes. That should seem reasonable him. Its only two points for him to shave off. But don't fall for that line if he tries to pull it on you.

The armor thing: are they wearing it all at once? are you calculating the values properly? (highest value + half the next highest value. Then thats it, you don't get the benefit of wearing more than two types of armor--thus trying to avoid part of your problem)
If they wearing it all at the sametime enforce those penalties, man.

I don't think any of those "hammer" the character.

And for all of you saying "Its not the player's fault. Its the GMs fault." I guess we should all be so luck as to be born a great GM and never have to learn anything. :S

He asking for help. Try to be constructive.

Now, if you DO wanna hammer him:
Rooftops. Snipers. If he's on a rooftop, put them on the next rooftop.
I also like the "make a run w/ as little combat as possible. I suspect that most runners can make thier own combat whether its there or not...

I dunno what to tell, ya other than that. Good luck!

Maybe one of the GMs that's used to dealing w/ this sorta thing can come through for ya.

[Rev]

If the charachter really has no stealth skill it is entirely realistic to have the entire group sneaking toward something and have a group of enemies all open up on the troll. They will simply notice him before anyone else. After he dies everyone else really ought to consider sneaking away from their lumbering troll hosed shadowrun.

You could also just tell him he must have some other skills. That as is his charachter is not a shadowrunner and the johnson will not call him. Basically "fix your charachter or leave". You could also start paying the charachters individually based on the johnsons assessment of them. The lumbering combat goon is probably one of the cheapest and easiest to get archtypes. Perhaps he should be paid half as much as the more skilled team members?

I still think BECKS would work better though. A charachter like you describe is terribly inefficient in BECKS. The problems the charachter has (ridiculous min-max) are exactly those it is designed to correct.

Also it is perfectly within your power to disallow used cyberware, especially at creation. If you do allow it you had better be using the cyberware stress rules cause otherwise it is just free money.


Sphynx is totally wrong, by the way. It is not the GM's job to deal with anything the players throw at them and make the game fun for everyone. Making the game fun for everyone is equally the responsibility of the players. You have said that this player is making the game less fun for everyone else and that the player knows that this is the case. This makes them a griefer. It is possible that nothing you can do will make them game fun as long as this player participates because thier source of enjoyment is the reduction of enjoyment for anyone else. If that is the case you simply have to kick them out and let them go back to killing newbies on mmorg's or whatever. If they are unintentionally and regretfully a griefer then you just have to get them to stop it, and that is really more of an out of game problem than an in game one.

[RedmondLarry]

Hey, I like these characters, in terms of number-crunching designs. They are not as min-maxed as they could be. The Troll will be very boring to run, unless he is played as the comedy sidekick to a lead actor, and the GM should make sure that the Shadowrun Team knows they don't have to take him everywhere.

The Sorcerer is cool, but doesn't have many skills or spells, and can't go into astral space. (He needs an Incr Reflexes +3 spell added to his description.) Until he gets a Sustaining Focus for his Increase Will, the caster may have +2 dice to drain rolls, but will have a +2 penalty for drain resistance and for spellcasting successees while sustaining the spell. This particular writeup doesn't give him any individual-target spells, but no big deal. He too is a one-trick poney, but not as likely to cause a social problem for the team.

Both of these characters only have one tool at their disposal, which is combat. And like a carpenter whose only tool is a hammer, they will treat every problem they comes across as something that should be solved by hammering.

I wouldn't have any trouble having either or both of these characters in my game, but my players know that their characters can force a team member to not go to the meet, or not meet with any contacts, or can eject a character from their team if they are not getting along. The GM needs to educate the players that they can interview and accept/reject potential characters that try to join their team.

The GM needs to ensure that he can make the flaws have roughly equal impact on the character as the edges provide benefit, or he shouldn't allow them or should lower the point value for them. For example, I believe all soy products are made with Table Salt, to improve taste. The character could never eat out without risking terrible pain, vomiting, nausea, dizziness, shortness of breath and splotches on his face. Then the flaw would have the appropiate value. No pizza (salt is used in the dough). No McDonald's french fries. Any common food item used for this allergy should be something he can't avoid, like Sunlight, Pollution, and Plastic can't be avoided in the 6th world.

[Eyeless Blond]