Attention and Heavy Weaponry Options

[Machiavelli]

We have a very regular discussion about the attention "bigger" guns may cause during our runs. I usually play mages and don´t carry guns, so i didn´t have to think about it in the past. But I just started running with a phys-ad and now these problem is starting to touch my char, too.

I have been in the german bundeswehr, so i have at least a little impression of how big different weapons are. I know that Pistols under a big jacket shouldn´t be a problem to conceal, MP´s on the other side (depends on the model) should cause a lot more attention. I know that an assault rifle is BIG, and an MG is even bigger. And here the trouble starts:

I say, that a MG is bigger than an assault rifle, but not THAT much bigger. Most people doesn´t even know the exact difference. If you run around with an Assault Rifle or with an MG makes no difference for citizens or security forces. Both are big, both are illegal, both are military weapons. Security forced don´t react differently just because you "only" carry an assault rifle instead of an MG. There is no "low-risk" SWAT for gangsters with Assault rifles and a "military armor" SWAT for the goon with the MG. If you shoot, there should also be no big difference in noise that amateurs could differ. It is automatic fire with high-calibre-rounds and the citizens head for cover and call the Star...

So what do you think about this? Does it matter if my troll carries an MMG instead of an Assault Rifle? Is there a difference between a Vindicator and a Gauscannon?

[Faraday]

Generally, if it's bigger than an SMG, it's advisable to keep it well hidden in box/storage until you need it. Exception goes to sport rifles and shotguns, they're somewhat less intimidating and the cops may actually ask questions before shooting.

If you can break down the gun, you could carry an assault rifle discreetly, maybe a LMG if you're a troll. Rule of thumb that I give for gun breakdowns is to reduce the concealability modifier by 4. So an SMG would be about as easy to hide as a heavy pistol. A heavy pistol becomes about as easy to hide as a hold out pistol. Keep those bits in a guitar case or even under a longcoat, you can walk with them in public without the corp drones calling the cops ASAP.

Once the shooting starts, autofire and explosions pretty much means the SWAT gets called in ASAP. Anything bigger than a pistol also garners more police attention than a few squad cars for backup. Granted, this assumes you're in an area that actually HAS police protection or hired security. If it's just gang turf, then they might ignore you depending on the circumstances.

[Machiavelli]

Sure, but what if you carry the weapons assembled and unhidden?

[Faraday]

Sure, but what if you carry the weapons assembled and unhidden?

Generally, if it's bigger than an SMG, it's advisable to keep it well hidden in box/storage until you need it. Exception goes to sport rifles and shotguns, they're somewhat less intimidating and the cops may actually ask questions before shooting.

Not really much to add here. Anything openly carried in public that looks like a military weapon (Assault rifles, MGs, bigger stuff) is going to get the police's hairy eyeball. Better have a license for that thing.

[Machiavelli]

Ok, so YOU would agree, that if you run around with a big gun (SMG, Assault Rifle, MG or bigger) the security agency responsible for this area is busting your nuts. There is no difference between the type of weapon if you start shooting it.

[Dakka Dakka]

I agree on your opinions if they applied to present day Germany or even the USA, but the problem is the rules say otherwise. Most assault rifles have restricted availability, meaning everyone can get a license to own, carry and use such weapons. Even LMGs however are forbidden.
So an AR should not get you different treatment than a pistol. It draws more attention however as it is more difficult to conceal. The question is are LEOs allowed to ask for a license without any provocation on your part and what are they allowed to do if you stroll around with a visible weapon. Is this different form cars, whose operation should be restricted as well even if their acquisition is not.

[Machiavelli]

Hmmm...i have to think about that. Licences....going to stuffer shack with an AR.....nobody can f*ck you up, not even the Star/Knight.....sounds good.

[Faraday]

So an AR should not get you different treatment than a pistol. It draws more attention however as it is more difficult to conceal. The question is are LEOs allowed to ask for a license without any provocation on your part and what are they allowed to do if you stroll around with a visible weapon. Is this different form cars, whose operation should be restricted as well even if their acquisition is not.

On the street, pistols and smaller will get little if any notice. SMGs and machine pistols will get some attention unless well hidden, carrying a license for one is a good idea. Longarms and assault rifles that are merely "restricted" CAN theoretically be carried openly but you'd better have a license if you carry it in "civilized" areas. Generally LEOs will check your PAN for a license, in fact it may be the legal requirement. No license means you get to have a nice chat with the local police and a free ride to the precinct for illegal possession (and anything else they can come up with). Assault rifles tend to generate more "concerned citizens" than a shotgun or hunting rifle.

Cars are similar. Most police vehicles will just automatically scan the vehicle for license/registration/driver info/ticket info and so on. If you aren't broadcasting a proper ID, then you get pulled over and fined at the very least.

I might add that even if you DO carry an AR legally, you WILL attract a lot of (probably) unwanted attention.

[Machiavelli]

How much more attention do i get, if i replace the AR with an LMG in a "not so good" (C and lower) area?

[Paul]

I'm curious. How many of you have fired a machine gun? How many of have seen or heard one fired? And finally what would you do if you saw someone carrying a machine gun?

An M60 weighs around 23 pounds, and is 43 or so inches in length. By way of comparison the M16A2 is about 7 and a half pounds and 39 inches long. It doesn't sound like much of a difference until you start adding ammunition, and factor in that an M16 is designed to be pretty easily carried and fired by an individual. An M60 is typically a crew served weapon. This means in order to effectively operate it most people need more than one person to operate it.

Having fired both of these weapons I can say that the noise level is significantly different between the two.

Now that said the rest kind of depends on the game you run. I think that the logical reaction of any one who's unarmed encountering someone carrying a weapon is basically fear. (Some people will have better training, a friendlier disposition with the PC's, etc....) I think they'd initially try to avoid a PC openly carrying. Some, may be civically responsible type who call the local version of the cops. (Knight Errant, their street gang, the corp cops, etc...) Obviously your mileage will vary-especially depending on the style at your table.

[Lindt]

Frankly, its a MACHINE GUN. Its going to draw some significant concern.

Think about this: You own a Pagani Zonda. No matter where you go, its going to attract attention. I feel its the same deal as a LMG.

[Dakka Dakka]

A rare car will attract attention, but it won't get you thrown in a cell or shot (not from the LEOs at least).

[Machiavelli]

First: blame on you, making me google for the Pagani Zonda^^.

Second: I read all the SR novels and i think that i basically know what can be done and what should be left. AR in a crisis-zone or a Z-area - no problem. Bit better surrounding: maximum an MP that can be concealed at least a bit. Pistols for everything else. Big weaponry was usually for securitiy forces with the corresponding licenses and in the approbriate area. Going ANYWHERE with something bigger and unconcealed causes unwanted attention. Therefore it will not go into my head, that there should be a significant difference between an app. 1000 mm military weapon and a 1200 mm military weapon.

[Paul]

I always chuckle when I have a player who thinks living in a Z zone or operating in one means they're safe. Sure they're likely to not see a cop anytime soon. But that homeless guy and his buddies? The ones who live in conditions that's make a devil rat cringe, yeah they see you and your stuff. It's not a constant concern because that'd bog the game down and be no fun. But every once in a while it's good to remind people that other people want what you have.

[Faraday]

I always chuckle when I have a player who thinks living in a Z zone or operating in one means they're safe. Sure they're likely to not see a cop anytime soon. But that homeless guy and his buddies? The ones who live in conditions that's make a devil rat cringe, yeah they see you and your stuff. It's not a constant concern because that'd bog the game down and be no fun. But every once in a while it's good to remind people that other people want what you have.

Yeah, but I imagine having some obvious military/security hardware will tend to discourage casual "involuntary transfer of possession".
Doesn't mean a desperate bastard won't try once in a while though.

[KarmaInferno]

Eh. Slap Chameleon Coat on an MG and you can probably carry it slung over your shoulder in the streets of some areas without attracting too much attention. It won't look like a weapon even if people do notice a blur there, so the likely reaction from passerby would be at most "Huh, that's weird" rather than "OMG a gun!"

This generally won't work in security zones or at checkpoints. Might make hiding the weapon easier if you are also taking other steps to conceal them, though - a cloaked MG amongst a bunch of mops and brooms in a janitor's cart might not get noticed, for example.



-k

[Daylen]

I agree on your opinions if they applied to present day Germany or even the USA, but the problem is the rules say otherwise. Most assault rifles have restricted availability, meaning everyone can get a license to own, carry and use such weapons. Even LMGs however are forbidden.
So an AR should not get you different treatment than a pistol. It draws more attention however as it is more difficult to conceal. The question is are LEOs allowed to ask for a license without any provocation on your part and what are they allowed to do if you stroll around with a visible weapon. Is this different form cars, whose operation should be restricted as well even if their acquisition is not.

Depends on location. Some areas it wouldn't do more than bat an eye, others might have 5 Knight's Errant cars show up with weapons drawn. For most runners I don't think it matters much if LEOs are allowed to ask for a license, if they want to in many places in UCAS they will, and in some areas at the point of their own gun. Runners in (non Philly) Pennsylvania might be ok and not get asked much for their licenses, but its not going to work like that in NYC. Even in UCAS many areas probably woudn't bat an eye at a browning max-power in a hip holster.

The difference in a machinegun and assault rifle is somewhat significant, usually about 10 pounds (for the difference between a LMG and AR) dry. Assault rifles are select fire rifles of intermediate cartridge size with a barrel usually 20" or less. A machine gun uses a full size cartridge (though the distinction is blurred of late in the light machinegun type) is usually belt fed and is designed to fire for long durations; they are usually 15 pounds or more in weight (most AR's are about 4-8 lbs) and include a mount of some sort, usually a bipod for LMG and tripod for MMG or HMG. The easy way to see the difference is an AR looks like a rifle, a MG looks like something you wouldn't want to fire from the shoulder, or couldn't fire from the shoulder because there is no shoulder stock.

[Machiavelli]

I think i go with the "big matchbag" and if the things turn bad.....surprise^^

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm curious. How many of you have fired a machine gun? How many of have seen or heard one fired? And finally what would you do if you saw someone carrying a machine gun?

I have fired everything from SMG's to Heavy Machine Guns on Active Duty. I have actively carried in the field (Former US Marine) my M16, a M240 SAW, and an M60 MG. All CAN be fired independantly. The M60 works best, however, if you have an A-GUnner to help lug that ammunition. If I witnessed someone actively carrying any of the above, I would check to see if they are "Police/Military" first. If not, I would call the "Police" to inform them that some whacked out Crazy is carrying serious amounts of firepower openly.

An M60 weighs around 23 pounds, and is 43 or so inches in length. By way of comparison the M16A2 is about 7 and a half pounds and 39 inches long. It doesn't sound like much of a difference until you start adding ammunition, and factor in that an M16 is designed to be pretty easily carried and fired by an individual. An M60 is typically a crew served weapon. This means in order to effectively operate it most people need more than one person to operate it.

Having fired both of these weapons I can say that the noise level is significantly different between the two.

Yes, the sound signature is vastly different between the two weapons. The Sound signature between the M16A2 and the M249 is also significantly different, even though the weapons use the same ammunition.

Now that said the rest kind of depends on the game you run. I think that the logical reaction of any one who's unarmed encountering someone carrying a weapon is basically fear. (Some people will have better training, a friendlier disposition with the PC's, etc....) I think they'd initially try to avoid a PC openly carrying. Some, may be civically responsible type who call the local version of the cops. (Knight Errant, their street gang, the corp cops, etc...) Obviously your mileage will vary-especially depending on the style at your table.

Pretty much how we run it too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The easy way to see the difference is an AR looks like a rifle, a MG looks like something you wouldn't want to fire from the shoulder, or couldn't fire from the shoulder because there is no shoulder stock.

Ummmmm.... Every Machine Gun I have ever fired, with the exception of HMG's like the M2 Browning, all have shoulder stocks. And yes, I have fired them extensively using the Shoulder Stock, in multiple positions (Standing, Sitting, Kneeling, Prone). The recoil is not all that significant if you know how to control the weapon properly (at least for me anyways). In the prone position, I could fire Full Auto all day long (and have actually done so) with no real physical discomfort at all. It is not as difficult as you would think.

[KarmaInferno]

Heck, even MGs that don't normally have shoulder stocks often have crazy people making and selling third-party modification accessories available to attach one.

I mean, it'd still be a bad idea on some models, but if you wanted to do it you could.




-k

[Daylen]

Ummmmm.... Every Machine Gun I have ever fired, with the exception of HMG's like the M2 Browning, all have shoulder stocks. And yes, I have fired them extensively using the Shoulder Stock, in multiple positions (Standing, Sitting, Kneeling, Prone). The recoil is not all that significant if you know how to control the weapon properly (at least for me anyways). In the prone position, I could fire Full Auto all day long (and have actually done so) with no real physical discomfort at all. It is not as difficult as you would think.

I was referring to standing position, sorry, I should have been more specific. MMGs many times don't have shoulder stocks such as the browning 1919. And I don't want to shoot 20+lb MG from the shoulder while standing, my arms would wear out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[MortVent]

Heck, even MGs that don't normally have shoulder stocks often have crazy people making and selling third-party modification accessories available to attach one.

I mean, it'd still be a bad idea on some models, but if you wanted to do it you could.




-k

not to mention, setting. In SR the troll can consider a m-60 sized weapon a rifle, and a stocked M2 to be a squad support weapon due to size and strength

[Daylen]

Heck, even MGs that don't normally have shoulder stocks often have crazy people making and selling third-party modification accessories available to attach one.

I mean, it'd still be a bad idea on some models, but if you wanted to do it you could.




-k

I hear the sweds did that with their brownings.

[3278]

I say, that a MG is bigger than an assault rifle, but not THAT much bigger. Most people doesn´t even know the exact difference. If you run around with an Assault Rifle or with an MG makes no difference for citizens or security forces. Both are big, both are illegal, both are military weapons.

I agree that the average citizen isn't going to make a distinction: they're going to hear shots, or see big ugly death staring them in the face, and they're going to run screaming or freeze or call the cops or whatever: it doesn't matter if it's an SMG or an HMG, they're going to have approximately the same response, because they're not familiar with the individual weapons [and because they spell equal amounts of death for the average citizen, anyway].

The response of a security force, in my game, would depend on the level of security force. An arcology lobby rent-a-cop might not respond any differently than a civilian,* but a member of a high-threat response team is going to treat a situation with LMGs very differently than one with assault rifles. Assault rifles are really just hunting rifles with bigger clips and automatic fire, after all: if I wanted an "assault rifle," I could have one with $50 and a bread tie. But if I'm carrying - and using - a light machine gun, that HTR commander is going to know that I have access to military weaponry, highly restricted and dangerous material that can do serious life and property damage, all out of proportion with what an assault rifle can do.

Security forced don´t react differently just because you "only" carry an assault rifle instead of an MG. There is no "low-risk" SWAT for gangsters with Assault rifles and a "military armor" SWAT for the goon with the MG.

Absolutely, but if were a SWAT commander, my actions would be much more swift, and much more decisive, if the shadowrunning team had military weaponry. [I would also be more likely to bring my own military weaponry.] Because the risk to civilians and property is so much higher, I would be justified in taking more risky actions myself.

It's like the calculation a police officer makes when you're speeding: if he has to turn around in heavy traffic and pull you over on a street with no shoulder, and you're only going a little over the speed limit, he won't pull you over, because the danger he would present in pulling you over is greater than the danger you represent speeding. But if you're going twice the speed limit and driving erratically, the danger you present is greater, so he can and should take more risks.

The SWAT team is also going to bring radically different equipment, depending on what the opposition is fielding. I'm not going to break out my chopper and my riot control vehicle for three guys with M-16s, but if you've got military weaponry, I'm going to need to field a military response. That means the manpower and material required to counteract what you've brought.

If your shadowrunning team shows up with a mortar and a heavy machine gun and anti-tank weapons, the police response is going to be tactically very different, and strategically very different, than if you were the same guys with AK-47s. The civilians can't tell the difference, and the bullets the cops will shoot at you can't tell the difference, but the cops themselves sure can.

*Although he might be a veteran, and know exactly what he's dealing with. I like to keep players guessing.