Counter Sniper Tactics Options

[Yerameyahu]

Even if you use one limo, the SR4 rules don't allow a sniper to shoot you inside it (with the opaque glass). Instead, he'll have to shoot the limo with the insane DV/AP they give them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Daylen]

Lets see. Simple Veteran Sniper with no Mods. Not Maxed.
4 Agility
4 Skill
Specialty
Smartlink

Hmmmmm.... 12 Dice, non resisted. That will kill most Metahumans outright with the right Weapon.
It really is not all that difficult to kill someone with a Sniper NPC.

We're not talking about most metahumans (I thought), we are talking about runners. Now do you assume the target will be stationary? I wouldn't. For those long and extreme range shots there should be penalties for wind, especially in cities where the wind is messy and almost impossible to predict. Not sure how that effects things in SR4, but in 3 it would mean a (tough) runner would probably survive the first shot.

[Ascalaphus]

Even if you use one limo, the SR4 rules don't allow a sniper to shoot you inside it (with the opaque glass). Instead, he'll have to shoot the limo with the insane DV/AP they give them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Can't you just use the same rules as for shooting through walls? As I recall that was hard but not impossible.

[MortVent]

of course most are assuming the shooter is a metahuman

It could be a drone, and in SR those are the nasty ones.

You can mod up a remington 950 with SA, silencer, extended barrel, smartlink and imp. rangefinder. Feed it some EX-EX or APDS ammo

Now mount that in a concealed fixed mount on a stormcloud blimp drone, if rigged don't worry about upgrading the pilot or autosofts.

total cost: 12,225

Which is less than the street cost of a sniper rifle, with the added bonus of it blending into the noise (they are common sights for site security, traffic watching, etc)

[Daylen]

of course most are assuming the shooter is a metahuman

It could be a drone, and in SR those are the nasty ones.

You can mod up a remington 950 with SA, silencer, extended barrel, smartlink and imp. rangefinder. Feed it some EX-EX or APDS ammo

Now mount that in a concealed fixed mount on a stormcloud blimp drone, if rigged don't worry about upgrading the pilot or autosofts.

total cost: 12,225

Which is less than the street cost of a sniper rifle, with the added bonus of it blending into the noise (they are common sights for site security, traffic watching, etc)

Worked well enough in Shooter right?

[Yerameyahu]

You can use whatever rules you like… if you're not using the real ones. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I agree that a lot of the vehicle rules are silly, so GM flexibility is probably a good idea there. Still, if you can't see, you have no idea what your precision shot is hitting. Hopefully he always sits in the same seat?

[3278]

It could be a drone, and in SR those are the nasty ones.

By far worse than any sniper I've ever encountered, with the added benefit that capture of the device is a lot less costly than capture of the sniper. It's not unreasonable for me to roll 26 dice to attack, and of course I get five actions a round. I can see 4 kilometers and fire 1650 meters. I can see through walls. I can fill a volume with tactically-networked autonomous devices, and jump from one to the other as needed. I spend most of the game trying to figure out how not to ruin the game for the other players. And I'm just barely past starting level.

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, it *is* unreasonable. It's just also possible. Don't oversell, though: the meta sniper can get the dice, the vision, the range, and use drone tac-support. The actual differences are just whether or not you're doing it online… and being able to fly.

[3278]

I mean, it *is* unreasonable. It's just also possible.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Agreed! What's really unreasonable is the amount of book-keeping: I have a variety of rigger tables in Evernote on my phone, and eight pages of character sheet [with drones, my wheelchair, weapons, reference pages, a table of "stuff I'll often have to roll"].

But I like book-keeping: I made vehicles with Rigger 3 for fun.

Don't oversell, though: the meta sniper can get the dice, the vision, the range, and use drone tac-support. The actual differences are just whether or not you're doing it online… and being able to fly.

All very good points. There are a lot of things a metahuman can do that no drone can, like get rigged without Signal, or buy a coffee from a street vendor. Right tool for the right job: sometimes, a metahuman sniper is definitely the best way to go. Five IPs and being able to fly are pretty sweet, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Falconer]

Signal has nothing to do with the sensor range. Sensor range is purely a function of the sensor being USED.

IE: MAD sensors have an extremely short range no matter what... you could put a telescope out with a signal rating of 1, just so you could tap into it with other equipment at short range... doesn't mean it won't see things far off!!


In any case, snipers are just plain downright nasty... it's one of the biggest reasons why anonymity is a big friend of yours in the shadows. Lets face it against any competent one... one round and you're dead once you're seen and identified (especially if he's hunting you to collect on a bounty or the like).

IF you've somehow managed to survive the first shot... about the only thing you can do is either have ungodly perception (unlikely, given how inflated stealth pools are!). Some kind of sensor system for back tracking bullets to their source like a tacnet. Or get the hell out of sight... throw smoke/thermal smoke if necessary and get the hell under cover!

[Daylen]

By far worse than any sniper I've ever encountered, with the added benefit that capture of the device is a lot less costly than capture of the sniper. It's not unreasonable for me to roll 26 dice to attack, and of course I get five actions a round. I can see 4 kilometers and fire 1650 meters. I can see through walls. I can fill a volume with tactically-networked autonomous devices, and jump from one to the other as needed. I spend most of the game trying to figure out how not to ruin the game for the other players. And I'm just barely past starting level.

Your GM is being nice to you; you should thank him.

[3278]

It's not impossible. Maybe you could be more specific?

[kzt]

With SR-era computers, mapsofts and drones for up-to-the-moment mapping, you could model all possible directions of fire for an entire route so that you know exactly what and where to watch out for, and which spots to check. Sure, it's paranoid, but it's not all that hard to set up.

Improved invis and physical mask are what makes that harder then it might seem. But it's an excellent start.

[Christian Lafay]

Improved invis and physical mask are what makes that harder then it might seem. But it's an excellent start.

Or just get creative with the attacks. Not many people prep for a monowire attached to a light post and a trashcan wielded shut and full of explosives.

[Yerameyahu]

Doesn't sound like sniping to me, Christian. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

More and more I'm thinking this is about information warfare, not sniping per se. If you can't figure out where the target will be and when, you can't assassinate.

Dedicated snipers make a lot of sense for the Military, or SWAT: you're basically guaranteed that there will be enemies to snipe.

But in Shadowrun, often enough sniping won't be possible, or not the best way to get things done. (For example: bombs, poison, mind-controlling a bodyguard to assassinate the principal.) So a dedicated sniper becomes the hammer hoping every problem can be made to look like a nail.

---

Likewise, in counter-sniper tactics, the main goal should be to deny the enemy strategic information. If they don't know where you live, or what you're going to do, they'd need citywide surveillance to find you. If they can't find you, they can't assassinate you.

Because even if you take anti-sniper measures, you're still at risk from the dedicated, versatile assassin that manages to find you.

[Daylen]

It's not impossible. Maybe you could be more specific?

For not trashing your drones with missiles of the heat seeking or radar guided variety.

[3278]

For not trashing your drones with missiles of the heat seeking or radar guided variety.

Ah. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yeah, we're not really there yet: I'm sure that as those measures are appropriate, they'll be used against me. [I'm two adventures in with this character, and not really running against targets with heat seeking missiles as a part of their defenses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ] That doesn't really change any of the things I said about drones as snipers, though.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

By far worse than any sniper I've ever encountered, with the added benefit that capture of the device is a lot less costly than capture of the sniper. It's not unreasonable for me to roll 26 dice to attack, and of course I get five actions a round. I can see 4 kilometers and fire 1650 meters. I can see through walls. I can fill a volume with tactically-networked autonomous devices, and jump from one to the other as needed. I spend most of the game trying to figure out how not to ruin the game for the other players. And I'm just barely past starting level.

Heh... You cannot see through walls unless you are within 100 Meters of the wall... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
UWB Radar only has a range of 100 Meters. That is a hard-coded range.

[3278]

Heh... You cannot see through walls unless you are within 100 Meters of the wall... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
UWB Radar only has a range of 100 Meters. That is a hard-coded range.

Absolutely correct, just like the cyberware version of it, and you can only see through, what, 16 barrier worth of walls? [Don't quote me on that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ] But it's an incredible ability, particularly in combination with a tacnet of small flying drones. Then you really can do those "shooting through walls" tricks, without suffering blind fire. [Although I think most GMs probably would still saddle you with the penalties.] The possibilities as a rigger are just incredible...and anyone can be a "rigger," inasmuch as anyone can control drones to some degree or another. That tacnet works just as well for a sniper as it does for a rigger.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Absolutely correct, just like the cyberware version of it, and you can only see through, what, 16 barrier worth of walls? [Don't quote me on that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ] But it's an incredible ability, particularly in combination with a tacnet of small flying drones. Then you really can do those "shooting through walls" tricks, without suffering blind fire. [Although I think most GMs probably would still saddle you with the penalties.] The possibilities as a rigger are just incredible...and anyone can be a "rigger," inasmuch as anyone can control drones to some degree or another. That tacnet works just as well for a sniper as it does for a rigger.

Hehehe... Up to Barrier 20...

And no doubt. Tacnets are cool. Unfortunately, while you may not suffer the blind fire penalty, you would still be using the Character's Intuition for such a shot (At least in my game), since you are being fed targeting data from a source not with you, as I would classify something like that as Indirect fire. Now, if you WERE within that 100 Meters, then no such penalty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Christian Lafay]

Doesn't sound like sniping to me, Christian. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Quite right. It's an assassination.

[thorya]

I suppose an assistant with a nanopaste disguise or a wageslave having undergone permanent surgery to look like an executive is a pretty good defense against a sniper. Or even have all your body guards look like you.

If you think you need something else to discourage every mission from becoming a snipe fest, I imagine it would not be hard for a company to determine likely sniping spots and to rig up simple sensors in place there that would detonate a flash bang, gas grenade, or similar device when it detects the sound of a shot being fired in that location. This would disable the sniper and immediately notify the authorities where the shot came from. A detection range of 3 meters or so would be enough to allow a network of these to be set up to form an effective sniper defense. Sort of anti-sniping landmines. Heck, I could even see these being rigged in places where there are worries of violence. Banks, airports, subway stations. This way if shots are fired, violence is halted until the cavalry arrives and they would have a code to disarm these defenses.

Your players might hate this, but it will at least add the depth of having to assess security before they take shots. And they might decide to rig these up around their own base or around their rigger's van. Note, that first shot still gets off, but the shit hits the fan much faster for the sniper.

[MortVent]

never forget... whimp (aka mindless clones), add a spirit with possession or simply rigged by the original...

[Daylen]

I suppose an assistant with a nanopaste disguise or a wageslave having undergone permanent surgery to look like an executive is a pretty good defense against a sniper. Or even have all your body guards look like you.

If you think you need something else to discourage every mission from becoming a snipe fest, I imagine it would not be hard for a company to determine likely sniping spots and to rig up simple sensors in place there that would detonate a flash bang, gas grenade, or similar device when it detects the sound of a shot being fired in that location. This would disable the sniper and immediately notify the authorities where the shot came from. A detection range of 3 meters or so would be enough to allow a network of these to be set up to form an effective sniper defense. Sort of anti-sniping landmines. Heck, I could even see these being rigged in places where there are worries of violence. Banks, airports, subway stations. This way if shots are fired, violence is halted until the cavalry arrives and they would have a code to disarm these defenses.

Your players might hate this, but it will at least add the depth of having to assess security before they take shots. And they might decide to rig these up around their own base or around their rigger's van. Note, that first shot still gets off, but the shit hits the fan much faster for the sniper.

Simply having the cavalry show up is a way to get the snipers to run. Also, deep inside an arcology its hard to get off 100m much less 600m shots.