Articulated Weapon Arm & External Cyberlimb Weapon Mount, What are their purposes? Options

[Dakka Dakka]

Those things sound coool but do they really work? Here are my problems with them.
-There are no rules for firing them in addition to handheld weapons
-Although they can be rotated and pivoted, they lack a Pilot and so cannot be used independently.
-They are not vehicles and as such cannot get an after market pilot.

Am I missing something or are they that useless?

[Squinky]

They are considered a smart firing platform. That explains most of it.

So it can fire on its own with a pilot 3, sensor 3, and one targeting soft. Could be useful.

[Faraday]

Considering that the arm can hold an LMG, I'd say it's certainly handy. Have a white knight firing away without a care.

[Yerameyahu]

Pretty sure these are just 'cyberpunk cred' items. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Gotta have the freaky stuff, even though it's crap.

Actually, the description seems to imply that they're not Piloted. It twice specifically refers to a user remotely operating the mounted weapon. So, it's something for the hackers and riggers to do *to* the sam.

It seems pretty clear: remote control mount, just like on a vehicle. I believe it's Command + Gunnery (unless that Rigger Pool table is wrong again, I forget), which is an easy pool for that hacker/rigger to boost.

[Paul]

I'm initially tempted to brush off the articulated arm as Pink Mohawk crap-but in all honesty that'd be way too quick. The concept of being a mobile weapons platform has it appeals in even the most serious games. Now recent editions have limited the effectiveness in some respects but still-damn how damned scary would it be if the cat you are bushwhacking suddenly sprouts a third arm with an automatic weapon!

[Udoshi]

Also keep in mind that you can Pilot upgrade smartguns, and it doesn't even cost modslots.

It is, however, bloody expensive, because you have to pay for autosofts too, but it can be done.

[MortVent]

Also keep in mind that you can Pilot upgrade smartguns, and it doesn't even cost modslots.

It is, however, bloody expensive, because you have to pay for autosofts too, but it can be done.

You pay for software?

Kick yer hacker in the nads or write it yourself ;3

[Yerameyahu]

And it's [Pilot-upgraded Smartgun] not useful, because the Piloted gun can do basically nothing alone. Maybe you could rule that it can 'remote-control' itself in the mount; seems fair, and it compensates for my (I don't think crazy) reading of the Mount rules (= R/C only).

[Faraday]

If you let your decker pilot it via command, it becomes pretty useful with enough RC. Especially if said decker has 4-5 IPs.

Might run out of bullets pretty quick though...

[Udoshi]

You pay for software?

Kick yer hacker in the nads or write it yourself ;3

I hope you like 6 month intervals writing Autosofts

sometimes its faster to just buy it

[MortVent]

I hope you like 6 month intervals writing Autosofts

sometimes its faster to just buy it

Easier and cheaper to steal and crack, with the bonus of resale of the cracked code

[Christian Lafay]

Easier and cheaper to steal and crack, with the bonus of resale of the cracked code

Software and Lifestyles, why the group should invest in a good Hacker contact.

[Squinky]

And it's [Pilot-upgraded Smartgun] not useful, because the Piloted gun can do basically nothing alone. Maybe you could rule that it can 'remote-control' itself in the mount; seems fair, and it compensates for my (I don't think crazy) reading of the Mount rules (= R/C only).

I'm not wanting a debate, but am I missing something? It's a smart platform mounted on your body, it can fire like a drone. You just send it a command and it does it's thing and you do yours. It might suck at targeting, but it can always throw down some suppressive.

Also, it's so crazy out there, it might just make the bad guns run away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit----

Also, it seems to me you wouldn't need to upgrade pilot on the gun, but the arm itself.

[Yerameyahu]

We're talking about different things… did you read the thread?

A. There are cyber weapon mounts, which the book says are 'as smart platforms', but also specifically, repeatedly describes their function only as 'someone else uses them to remote control the gun' (this is half the function of the Smart Platform).

B. I posited that this means they don't have Pilots (and can't). Instead, they're controlled just like remote turrets. You may disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

C. Udoshi mentioned later that you can Pilot-Upgrade a gun. Not 'need', 'can'. I suggested that a GM could allow that (otherwise pretty worthless) Pilot to control the Mount, though I don't think that's allowed RAW.

[Udoshi]

C. Udoshi mentioned later that you can Pilot-Upgrade a gun. Not 'need', 'can'. I suggested that a GM could allow that (otherwise pretty worthless) Pilot to control the Mount, though I don't think that's allowed RAW.

Why wouldn't it be? if it can be controlled remotely, the source of the control doesn't matter.

[MortVent]

Just have a TM put a machine sprite in it..

[Squinky]

We're talking about different things… did you read the thread?

A. There are cyber weapon mounts, which the book says are 'as smart platforms', but also specifically, repeatedly describes their function only as 'someone else uses them to remote control the gun' (this is half the function of the Smart Platform).

B. I posited that this means they don't have Pilots (and can't). Instead, they're controlled just like remote turrets. You may disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

C. Udoshi mentioned later that you can Pilot-Upgrade a gun. Not 'need', 'can'. I suggested that a GM could allow that (otherwise pretty worthless) Pilot to control the Mount, though I don't think that's allowed RAW.

Yep. Read the thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . And I respectfully disagree.

Heres my take on the weapon arms:
1. You focus on the portion of text describing how to remotely control them. Take a look at that again, you'll notice the repetition is only to make sure that no matter how it is used it requires a smartlinked user. Regardless, describing one function in detail doesn't cancel out other, more basic functions.
2. It is described specifically functioning as a smart platform. So it has a pilot, sensor, and targeting software.
3. I agree a pilot program wouldn't do much good on the weapon mounted in the arm. But was simply restating that the pilot in the arm could be upgraded easier.

[Yerameyahu]

That is an interpretation. I think mine is just as valid, considering the other, clearer ways they could have described it if they wanted the 'normal' Smart Platform function. The game is rife with examples of 'functions like' *not* meaning 'the same as', which is indeed a bad, bad writing practice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Because Pilots are specialized, Udoshi. The reason I said it's probably fine to allow in this case is that controlling a turret is a pretty common function of vehicle Pilots, and a reasonable thing to assume a gun-Pilot has (… even though it could never use that function otherwise). I don't believe that all Pilots are equal Matrix citizens, so they can't 'just R/C into' any device. Vehicle pilots don't operate their integrated weapons via R/C, for example.

I'm also not saying the Mounts couldn't have Pilots (exactly as 'real' Smart Platforms), just that the fluff there is very odd if that's the default. The more limited version is also appealing, because it encourages the hacker/riggers to 'rig' the sam, which is what everyone is always begging for around here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Personally, I'd prefer the book sell Dumb Weapon Platform (R/C only, Sensors) and Smart Weapon Platform (much costlier, Pilot, autosofts); then the same would go for the cybermounts.

[Udoshi]

Pretty sure these are just 'cyberpunk cred' items. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Gotta have the freaky stuff, even though it's crap.

Actually, the description seems to imply that they're not Piloted. It twice specifically refers to a user remotely operating the mounted weapon. So, it's something for the hackers and riggers to do *to* the sam.

It seems pretty clear: remote control mount, just like on a vehicle. I believe it's Command + Gunnery (unless that Rigger Pool table is wrong again, I forget), which is an easy pool for that hacker/rigger to boost.

....... you need to start backing up your 'interpretations' with the rules. You left off a critical and misleading piece of information.

A smartgun-equipped weapon mounted to the platform can be fired remotely or by the platform’s Pilot. The platform is equipped with Pilot 3, Sensor 3, and one Targeting autosoft (p. 246) at Rating 3

They explicitly count as smart firing platforms, and smart firing platforms can explicitly fire themselves. Problem solved.

In terms of handling what they can fire at, I suggest you take a page from the vehicle rules: Facing and turret coverage matters. An external mount can fire at anything the arm is pointed at, and an articulated weapon arm can fire at anything that isn't in the very small dead spot on the back.

Additionally, faq:
Q: Is it possible to insert a Pilot as the OS of a commlink and/or device?
A:Yes. Installing a Pilot replaces the exisitng OS. In the case of commlinks, this means that the device can no longer provide a persona, and the user must use the Issue Command action (p.229, SR4A) to use the device. Replacing a peripheral device’s OS with a Pilot can impact functionality if the Pilot isn’t designed for the same purpose as the old OS.
So yeah, its possible to put a Pilot on anything you want, so it can even go on the arm itself, if its even an issue(its not)

[Udoshi]

Those things sound coool but do they really work? Here are my problems with them.
-There are no rules for firing them in addition to handheld weapons
-Although they can be rotated and pivoted, they lack a Pilot and so cannot be used independently.
-They are not vehicles and as such cannot get an after market pilot.

Am I missing something or are they that useless?

I'm going to answer these questions in the order they matter.

3) Yes they can.
2) wrong. Even if they didn't have a pilot, an agent with command would do the trick. Or anything running command. (including the smartgun pilot itself)
1) Yes there are. The controller rolls initiative and takes action when the action phase comes up. Since they are cyberlimb modifications, the grade of the mount must match the grade of the limb/torso they are installed on. As such, they have Device ratings, and you can now calculate the initiative(response+pilot) if it is controlling itself.

[Yerameyahu]

Udoshi, I've already specifically mentioned that. While it says 'count as smart platform', it then describes them in a way that implies they're only like them in the R/C sense. You disagree, but don't act like I didn't clearly say 'I know what the Smart Platform says, and this is different'. And don't pretend that 'X counts as Y' in SR4 rules is a clear or infallible ruling; weren't you the crazy person who argued that the Stirrup Interface allows vehicle armor on a tiger? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) It 'counts as' a drone.

I also didn't say you couldn't *add* a Pilot later, but I now see what I said was misleading (the 'and can't' part); I was trying to say, 'they don't have a Pilot, and therefore can't fire themselves'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I have been talking about the default configuration.

[Udoshi]

Udoshi, I've already specifically mentioned that. While it says 'count as smart platform', it then describes them in a way that implies they're only like them in the R/C sense. You disagree, but don't act like I didn't clearly say 'I know what the Smart Platform says, and this is different'. And don't pretend that 'X counts as Y' in SR4 rules is a clear or infallible ruling; weren't you the crazy person who argued that the Stirrup Interface allows vehicle armor on a tiger? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) It 'counts as' a drone.

I also didn't say you couldn't *add* a Pilot later, but I now see what I said was misleading (the 'and can't' part); I was trying to say, 'they don't have a Pilot, and therefore can't fire themselves'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I have been talking about the default configuration.

You specifically said the bit about remote firing in your first post in the thread, deliberately leaving out the information they can fire themselves. And then point to the remote control clause as the ONLY means of controlling it. Sorry, but leaving out information on how it works, and then point to the only other information you left does not make a good arguement.

The fact is, cyberlimb weapon mounts count as smart firing platforms specifically because they say so. In this case, its not an ambigous case of 'x counts as y'. Its a very clear. You are right that it is NOT a smart firing platform. It has a different cost, different availability, different name. The only practical difference this makes is that they do not come with autosofts by default.
Once those requirements are met, it shares all the capabilities of a smart firing platform, including firing itself. So basically it costs more to get an independent gun-arm.


As for your last point.... Vehicle armor on biodrones is impossible because essence based augmentations and vehicle modification slots have nothing to do with each other in the current edition of shadowrun. I know that you, personally, like to call me a 'crazy powergamer' to discredit me in threads here, and this is not the first time I've seen you do it - but putting other peoples words in my mouth, and trying to blame me for them is very uncool. Especially when you're trying to deflect blame by making me look bad. Knock that shit off.

[Stahlseele]

Yay for Full Auto with 6 dice . .
Bad weather and dark and distracted and recoil and you hit nothing.
not even the renraku arcology while standing in front of it . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yay for Full Auto with 6 dice . .
Bad weather and dark and distracted and recoil and you hit nothing.
not even the renraku arcology while standing in front of it . .

Ahhhh..... But you can Suppress that Arcology with impunity, even with 6 Dice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Ahhhh..... But you can Suppress that Arcology with impunity, even with 6 Dice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not if it is dark (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sorry for putting this needless thread out there and then not replying earlier. For some reason dumpshock did not send me an email about the replies.

I just missed the introductory bit about being used like smart-firing platforms. So I stand corrected they do have a pilot and can be used independently from the character who has them implanted.