Mana Static, Is it still useful? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Lodges do not? O.o
I thought they did.
Does not last long enough for actual ritual. OK, this i will give you.
But if you have a ritual team, simply have someone stand by and re-cast aspected mana static again and again.
Ah, right, SR4 no more boost to magic, i forgot.

And that "NO More Boost To Magic" makes all the difference. Since you have no Magic Boost, the Mana Static is not all that much of a benefit (though they do have a few perks), regardless of whether it is Aspected or not.

Also, Back Ground Counts do not Stack... The most powerful takes precedence, so your scenario with the Lodge would not work anyways (I assume it was an SR2/3 Trick?).

[Falconer]

So tell me, since I have yet to see it in our game. What makes Aspected Mana Static so much more powerful than the Standard Mana Static. It is a permanent, Stationary spell, with a minor area of effect, that can be brought down (or actively negated) by counterspelling. It gives the caster a small boost, assuming he is willing to STAY in that Minor Area of Effect as the static builds in power; but it is such an insignificant boost compared to the fact that he is tied there, that it is almost useless in practice for boosting your actual spellcasting in a stressful situation. It is actually no more powerful in play than the normal Mana Static is, at least in my experience. And, If you are outside the area of effect, it is no different than the Standard Mana Static.

Where it shines, is in prepatory spell work. Put one up in your doss, and then reap a minor reward. But it still does not let you cast magic you otherwise could not have cast, since your Magic stays the same. You get a DP bonus. Which is a Big deal for a caster with average DP's (7-10 DP) but is otherwise fairly inconsequential, especially for those optimized mages everyone is so pleased as punch to make. Now you have even more dice to waste on your spell cap. Whoopee...

Incorrect... it cannot be negated by counterspelling once permanent... in the span of a *few seconds*. I can create a small aspected bulwark to fight in that lasts hours. That gives me, my spirits, etc. a benefit (with none of the drawbacks of regular mana static). The best you could do is spend one complex action to reduce by 1 from cleansing.

But it then turns around and does two things. It provides significant penalties to opposing mages and spirits entering that terrain. And two, gives a significant boost in dice to the friendly caster. An aspected domain gives +1 dice per BGC to both magic tests (similar to a power focus) and ALSO +1 drain dice per point of force. That is NOT a minor benefit; that is a major benefit. It's especially nasty once you get specialist summoner types... (their biggest problem is drain... and aspected domain is one of the FEW ways to boost drain pools).

Also I don't need to fight in it... I could create the terrain then drop my spirit in it. The spirit would benefit as well.

Really just a small 1 or 2 point home turf aspecting of your home turf is a major benefit against other magical factions. The ability to raise a 3+ point one on demand in less than a minute is ludicrous. (normal geomancy takes weeks, months, years...)

Regular mana static on the other hand, you need initiations in cleansing/filtering to make the best use out of it. It's only main benefit is creating nasty terrain on which you suffer a penalty but on which those you are fighting suffer a bigger penalty. (It's also a lot of fun for boning people with quickening! Oh your spell died... too bad!).

[Udoshi]

Here is how I would abuse it.

Vampire mage. Nosferatu, preferably.
High rating magical lodge.
Medkit and autodoc on standby to deal with the Drain.

Take a snack, use essence to boost magic as high as it can go.
Cast an aspected mana static at as high a force as it can go without causing physical damage due to my newly raised magic.
Summon a spirit with Guard. Or, scratch the last step and summon a spirit of man with guard and aspected mana static and do it on my behalf.
Get rid of remaining stun damage with a medkit while the mana static increases the background count up to its Force.
use Ritual Spellcasting, but Rush Jobbed with Guard. With a magic of around 9 or 10(12-9 in hours, halved), this should enable very quick rituals and your summoned spirit can double as your ritual spotter.
Useful for summoning, binding, etc.

Abusing it: Starting with spirit services at character creation doesn't specify that those spirits must be from your tradition. Banishing allows summoning/binding of out-of-tradition spirits. So, you take a blood spirit, at as high a force as you can justify by having a higher magic than 6(temporarily). Blood spirits DO have means of increasing their own Force, but it has been limited since the days of Bloodzilla.


That being said, even if the mechanics are abusive, I like the idea of a vampire blood mage for hire that is really good at magical stuff.... for a price.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Incorrect... it cannot be negated by counterspelling once permanent... in the span of a *few seconds*. I can create a small aspected bulwark to fight in that lasts hours. That gives me, my spirits, etc. a benefit (with none of the drawbacks of regular mana static). The best you could do is spend one complex action to reduce by 1 from cleansing.

True, Once Permanent. Takes a while, though (on the order of several Turns)... However, the area is confiningly small. Makes a Good target for heavy firepower, too...

But it then turns around and does two things. It provides significant penalties to opposing mages and spirits entering that terrain. And two, gives a significant boost in dice to the friendly caster. An aspected domain gives +1 dice per BGC to both magic tests (similar to a power focus) and ALSO +1 drain dice per point of force. That is NOT a minor benefit; that is a major benefit. It's especially nasty once you get specialist summoner types... (their biggest problem is drain... and aspected domain is one of the FEW ways to boost drain pools).

It is a MINOR benefit. Minor becauase you HAVE TO STAY in the Small, Confining Area which is now begging for someone to saturate it with weapons fire.

Also I don't need to fight in it... I could create the terrain then drop my spirit in it. The spirit would benefit as well.

And I go around it. Or I cast my own Mana Static on it, or take my Action to Cleanse it or Filter it (So I am not affected). Again, not a big deal, at least to me. Too many ways around it to call it powerful. Can it be somewhat useful? Sure. I would not call it powerful.

Really just a small 1 or 2 point home turf aspecting of your home turf is a major benefit against other magical factions. The ability to raise a 3+ point one on demand in less than a minute is ludicrous. (normal geomancy takes weeks, months, years...)

Normal Geomancy lasts longer too; Not on the order of a few hours. So again, Big deal. Most mages I have seen posted here do not benefit (or at least hardly at all) from 1-2 extra casting dice and 1-2 extra Drain Dice. SO it is not even a factor for most mages posted here on Dumpshock. It might mean something for the character I play currently (Magic 3, Spellcasting 8 for all Spells except Manipulation, which have 12 Dice), but again, it has not had the HUGE impact that you imply it does. NOT ONCE in almost 300 karma. So again, I am not seeing it.

Regular mana static on the other hand, you need initiations in cleansing/filtering to make the best use out of it. It's only main benefit is creating nasty terrain on which you suffer a penalty but on which those you are fighting suffer a bigger penalty. (It's also a lot of fun for boning people with quickening! Oh your spell died... too bad!).

I am still not seeing why you believe the Aspected IS SO MUCH BETTER than the Standard one. It is too easily avoided to be a major contributor to any conflict.

And yes, Either is great for screwing with the Quickened Spell...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Here is how I would abuse it.

Vampire mage. Nosferatu, preferably.
High rating magical lodge.
Medkit and autodoc on standby to deal with the Drain.

Take a snack, use essence to boost magic as high as it can go.
Cast an aspected mana static at as high a force as it can go without causing physical damage due to my newly raised magic.
Summon a spirit with Guard. Or, scratch the last step and summon a spirit of man with guard and aspected mana static and do it on my behalf.
Get rid of remaining stun damage with a medkit while the mana static increases the background count up to its Force.
use Ritual Spellcasting, but Rush Jobbed with Guard. With a magic of around 9 or 10(12-9 in hours, halved), this should enable very quick rituals and your summoned spirit can double as your ritual spotter.
Useful for summoning, binding, etc.

Abusing it: Starting with spirit services at character creation doesn't specify that those spirits must be from your tradition. Banishing allows summoning/binding of out-of-tradition spirits. So, you take a blood spirit, at as high a force as you can justify by having a higher magic than 6(temporarily). Blood spirits DO have means of increasing their own Force, but it has been limited since the days of Bloodzilla.


That being said, even if the mechanics are abusive, I like the idea of a vampire blood mage for hire that is really good at magical stuff.... for a price.

None of that would fly at our table. Infected are GM Approval ONLY. If he approves something like that, he has no one to blame for the abuse but himself.
As for Having Spirits outside your tradition at character creation. No way in hell. No wonder you think Aspected Mana Static is overpowered. You have no controls. And As for having Spirits at rating higher than your Magic Rating... You can't do that at chargen. It is not allowed.

And a Lodge and Static Never add to Magic Rating...

Everything you would abuse here is only at the whim of the GM to start with. *shrug*

[Falconer]

Sorry TJ... going back even in my ludicrous power mage game. (a dwarf currently with magic 12, and 9 initiatilzations... karma awards are far higher than normal in that one and it's a little over the top).

When things were starting off... said dwarf had magic 5. 4 in spellcasting... and no power focus yet (currently he has a force 5). GM was tossing us into an aspected count of *3*... against bug spirit opposition. Quite frankly we ran with our tails between our legs. It was overpoweringly strong. (try it when you have -3 or -6 to all your actions if assensing). Watching your spellcasting pool go from 9-12 down to 6... isn't very fun... especially when they're rolling 6+ dice to resist.

Later on, the adepts were less affected than the mages (contrary to peoples popular belief on here that adepts get hammered more than mages).... because they were using their initiations to gain power points and not metamagics... so to take an example of a magic 8 adept.. with 2 metamagics, and then 3 extra power points... he'd lose 1PP yeah per rating... out of 11. While the mages had to deal with problems with their sustaining foci, power foci, etc. (I was the only one without issues because cleansing was my very first metamagic after that bug spirit encounter... and much later filtering)

Your argument that even a power gamed mage is barely affected by it shows that you obviously haven't played mages enough to realize how much of a home field advantage this is. Also it shows some VERY rosy karma awards if you think it only takes 1 or 2 runs to get a metamagic. With typical SR4 karma awards you're looking at 3-4 to get the needed karma up in the teens. You're looking at months of gaming to get those high levels of magic let alone the initiations as well.

In that same game... GM has declared I can't generate a mana static higher than rating 6. (going into mana warp territory) Due to all the inventive uses I found for it. So please play with it some before you make those assertions... especially assertions keyed not off playing but on peoples experimental power-twink builds they post. Against a normal character, aspected backgrounds are devastating home turf advantages.

Most of those power builds also rely on things like a power focus... well background counts are a double whammy on using those crutches because you lose magic and the focus loses rating. So now you're looking at a triple penalty in that zone.

All it takes is a 1 point aspected background count to turn a wage mage into a major threat to a starting mage. Even a well built one.

You keep saying but the area is very localized... well inside a building that doesn't matter much. If that area is say the security checkpoint where the guards are posted. Or the entrance you have to go through. Etc. When you're dealing with inside room dimensions a 5m radius is a huge area.


TJ: you can have spirits higher than your magic very easily out of chargen. Binding spirits in chargen is a suckers move. The way you do it is you buy ritual materials in chargen. Then after play commences you take the time to bind a few.

[Ascalaphus]

F6 Mana Static generates a 6m radius, which is actually a pretty big space. A lot bigger than the typical area that a fight would take place in.

So if you activate Aspected Mana Static (AMS), and get, say, 3 hits, then immediately all enemy mages in the combat have their Magic reduced by 3, while you get a nice bonus. And every turn the advantage increases more, to the point where enemy mages can't do anything at all. That's really quite strong.

Since the AMS isn't aimed at persons, passive Counterspelling doesn't apply. Active Counterspelling takes a Complex Action, and a Counterspelling+Magic test, but the enemy's Magic has just been reduced by the AMS, so that's not all that easy. AND, after each active dispelling attempt, the dispeller must resist the same Drain of the spell he's trying to dispel. But since his Magic has been reduced (if his Counterspelling wasn't completely succesful), he'll probably be Over-Dispelling, taking Physical Damage. So active Counterspelling really isn't all that easy, safe or fun to do.

Also, you can't active-Counterspell a spell that's become Permanent. So if you cast a low-Force AMS, it might become permanent before dispelling is possible.



So basically, ordinary MS says "nobody's using Magic this fight", while AMS says "only my side will be using Magic this fight".

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sorry TJ... going back even in my ludicrous power mage game. (a dwarf currently with magic 12, and 9 initiatilzations... karma awards are far higher than normal in that one and it's a little over the top).

When things were starting off... said dwarf had magic 5. 4 in spellcasting... and no power focus yet (currently he has a force 5). GM was tossing us into an aspected count of *3*... against bug spirit opposition. Quite frankly we ran with our tails between our legs. It was overpoweringly strong. (try it when you have -3 or -6 to all your actions if assensing). Watching your spellcasting pool go from 9-12 down to 6... isn't very fun... especially when they're rolling 6+ dice to resist.

Later on, the adepts were less affected than the mages (contrary to peoples popular belief on here that adepts get hammered more than mages).... because they were using their initiations to gain power points and not metamagics... so to take an example of a magic 8 adept.. with 2 metamagics, and then 3 extra power points... he'd lose 1PP yeah per rating... out of 11. While the mages had to deal with problems with their sustaining foci, power foci, etc. (I was the only one without issues because cleansing was my very first metamagic after that bug spirit encounter... and much later filtering)

Your argument that even a power gamed mage is barely affected by it shows that you obviously haven't played mages enough to realize how much of a home field advantage this is. Also it shows some VERY rosy karma awards if you think it only takes 1 or 2 runs to get a metamagic. With typical SR4 karma awards you're looking at 3-4 to get the needed karma up in the teens. You're looking at months of gaming to get those high levels of magic let alone the initiations as well.

In that same game... GM has declared I can't generate a mana static higher than rating 6. (going into mana warp territory) Due to all the inventive uses I found for it. So please play with it some before you make those assertions... especially assertions keyed not off playing but on peoples experimental power-twink builds they post. Against a normal character, aspected backgrounds are devastating home turf advantages.

Most of those power builds also rely on things like a power focus... well background counts are a double whammy on using those crutches because you lose magic and the focus loses rating. So now you're looking at a triple penalty in that zone.

All it takes is a 1 point aspected background count to turn a wage mage into a major threat to a starting mage. Even a well built one.

You keep saying but the area is very localized... well inside a building that doesn't matter much. If that area is say the security checkpoint where the guards are posted. Or the entrance you have to go through. Etc. When you're dealing with inside room dimensions a 5m radius is a huge area.


TJ: you can have spirits higher than your magic very easily out of chargen. Binding spirits in chargen is a suckers move. The way you do it is you buy ritual materials in chargen. Then after play commences you take the time to bind a few.

I play mages plenty. I just do not play Optimized Mages with crazy magic Ratings, nor Crazy Dice pools with Crazy Powerful Foci. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yes, if your mage relies upon foci, ANY Mana Static Zone is going to likely screw him over pretty harshly, unless you happen to have an aspected one in your tradition handy. That is a tool that is useful, if used properly, but it is still a tool.

I also never said it only took a few runs to earn Metamagics. Not at our table anyways. Coming up on 300 Karma, and still only 3 Initiations. I also have to raise my magic to initiate again, so there is MORE Karma.

As for the Size of the zone, it is generally smaller than a single movement. I have yet to see a mage stand toe-to toe with Firepower and Angry Melee specialists. Not once. The biggest drawback to the Aspected Mana Static is the restriction that you stay within it to get the boost. I never stay static enough in a fight to actually benefit more than a little from such a zone. Drones do not care about Mana Static Zones, and Lead Hoses turn them into death traps. As for the "Big Area you keep touting, it is a step or two, and then I no longer worry about it. *Shrug* After all, Casting Combat Spells THROUGH a BGC zone causes no issues by RAW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

ALL of my mages are competant in a Fight outside of the Magical Arena, which is why I don't see it as all that big of a deal, I guess. I just do not see it as Devastating. Of course, if all your eggs are in the magical basket, well, then yes, you are kind of hosed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yes, you can purchase the materials for Spirits and Summon/Bind them after play starts. I disagree that it is a suckers move, however to bind one or two with a few points, since those spirits will be equal in force to your Magic. Not all Spellcasters are masters of Summoning, after all. Case in point; my current Mage only has 5 dice for typical Summoning, and 7 for Spirits of Man. Our table has Spiritsd spending Edge after Force 3. SO it is sometimes a good investment, if you are only using a few points. *shrug*

[Irion]

Aspect mana static is not an "Oh got they are shooting at us! ASPECT MANA STATIC!" kind of spell. (Unless you do not have much room anyway, like Ascalaphus pointed out)

It is more in the region: Here is the horde of zombies/critter/whatever comming, lets make our final stand.
If you can't move back and artillery is not that big of an issue. True this is not happening often.

The second big trick is to spice up a roll preparing the run.
Take a lifestye with aspected BC 2. Now cast Aspected mana static 6 (Means 7 Points of drain, heal up with medkit).
Now roll your +8 dice on magic tests for putting spells in your foci, summoning spirits, or quickening spells.

Yeah, it would be a lot meaner if it would be a "sustaining" spell.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Aspect mana static is not an "Oh got they are shooting at us! ASPECT MANA STATIC!" kind of spell. (Unless you do not have much room anyway, like Ascalaphus pointed out)

It is more in the region: Here is the horde of zombies/critter/whatever comming, lets make our final stand.
If you can't move back and artillery is not that big of an issue. True this is not happening often.

The second big trick is to spice up a roll preparing the run.
Take a lifestye with aspected BC 2. Now cast Aspected mana static 6 (Means 7 Points of drain, heal up with medkit).
Now roll your +8 dice on magic tests for putting spells in your foci, summoning spirits, or quickening spells.

Yeah, it would be a lot meaner if it would be a "sustaining" spell.

True... If you have no choice to to stand and deliver (and die in the process) then AMS is a great spell, as it will let you die gloriously. I tend to prefer it for domicile prep work, when necessary. It is not too bad as a "barrier" in a confined area, but it is way to small to be very effective, contrary to what others have said. Yes, it will take down a Focus sustained spell, but so will a normal Mana Static Spell. *Shrug* And neither of them will stop a Combat Spell cast from outside of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And Irion... Background Count does not STACK... Only the most powerful one takes precedence, unless you have a negative and a positive, In which case, it would (or at least should) cancel and use the remaining as the (positive or negative) BGC.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So basically, ordinary MS says "nobody's using Magic this fight", while AMS says "only my side will be using Magic this fight".

Just hope that you do not have magicians from different Traditions, on your team, with you, which is not all that uncommon, from my experience. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

You have no controls. And As for having Spirits at rating higher than your Magic Rating... You can't do that at chargen. It is not allowed.

And a Lodge and Static Never add to Magic Rating...

Two things I want to reply to: Vampires are capable of raising their magic rating directly through losing essence. Mana static doesn't raise your Magic. But Essence Drain does. (so a nosferatu with 18 essence and magic 6 can loose 12 essence and gain +6 magic. Not dice, actual stat points, for 12 hours. This is more than enough time to bind and summon spirits and work ritual magic. Especially when ritual magic now only takes you an hour to make the test. Yes, really. Do you remember the formula for how long ritual spellcasting takes? I do. In case you have forgotten, the Lodge rating caps the rating of things you do in it. So you need a high rating lodge if you plan on using this. Do you even KNOW the rules for lodges before assuming I'm getting them wrong? )

Aspected mana static is overpowered because it can give -12 dice to everyone's magic, magically turn that around to give you a +12 instead, all for the low-low-low cost of 5 karma to learn the spell, and having a spirit cast it for you. Even at a more moderate force, like 4-6, its still plenty good. Now compare it in terms of cost and effectiveness to the closest equivalent in the game system: A power focus. Just think about the cost-benefit ratio of both of those things, and you will see that aspect mana static is WAY out of proportion.


The other thing is that I am fully aware that there are a two levels to actually playing and discussing shadowrun. The first, what is technically possible, by the book, RAW, munchkinism, rules-fu, whatever you want to call it: In any given game system there are powerful combinations and ways to break the game. I'm sure you all know of things like Pun-Pun, the Omniscifier, locate city nuke, and the time traveling zombie coathanger - to poke fun at The Other Game.

But at the same time. I know that in an actual game, that is about having fun, and getting along with the other people playing, optimization tricks aren't really such a good idea. Most are too complex to explain clearly, the Gm will shoot down others, and the other players may not invite you back. There is a big difference between talking about what is possible within the system, and actually USING it in a game.

Before you start casting insults, saying I have no limits and no controls, I'd like to remind you, Tymeaus Jalynsfein, that there is a huge world of difference between an actual living game full of people, and a theoretical rules discussion. Some people, like myself, self moderate. Its not hard to play a character appropriate to the power level of the game you are in, while at the same time, having an awareness of how broken the system can be, but keeping them seperate.

And I think that is something people on dumpshock tend to forget.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Two things I want to reply to: Vampires are capable of raising their magic rating directly through losing essence. Mana static doesn't raise your Magic. But Essence Drain does. (so a nosferatu with 18 essence and magic 6 can loose 12 essence and gain +6 magic. Not dice, actual stat points, for 12 hours. This is more than enough time to bind and summon spirits and work ritual magic. Especially when ritual magic now only takes you an hour to make the test. Yes, really. Do you remember the formula for how long ritual spellcasting takes? I do. In case you have forgotten, the Lodge rating caps the rating of things you do in it. So you need a high rating lodge if you plan on using this. Do you even KNOW the rules for lodges before assuming I'm getting them wrong? )

Yes, I DO know the Rules for Lodges (And you cannot start with one out of the gate above a 6, Special Table rules, or Restricted Gear Quality notwithstanding). I never said you got them wrong, but enough people have indicated effects that they don't possess, so I just wanted to re-iterate that they do not actually do what they are saying they do. No worries, Udoshi. I am not accusing... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I also understand the Abilities of Nosferatu and Vampires. However, they are not standard table fare for everyone, and are EXTREMELY optional. We do not allow Infected at our tables, so they are not an option that ever enters into the discussion. I think I said that above. You must have missed it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for Ritual Spellcasting. Yes, I know the Formula. But since you are using an OPTIONAL race that is not accepted everywhere, it does not matter. A Nosferatu/Vampire character is a Twink Build for Twink Purposes. It would never fly at our table. All other things being equal, a Standard optimized MAgician will take 6 Hours to complete a ritual.

Aspected mana static is overpowered because it can give -12 dice to everyone's magic, magically turn that around to give you a +12 instead, all for the low-low-low cost of 5 karma to learn the spell, and having a spirit cast it for you. Even at a more moderate force, like 4-6, its still plenty good. Now compare it in terms of cost and effectiveness to the closest equivalent in the game system: A power focus. Just think about the cost-benefit ratio of both of those things, and you will see that aspect mana static is WAY out of proportion.

Here is where you are wrong... It gives (for the crazy Nosferatu Mage with Magic 12) a -12 MAGIC to everyone else, and a +12 Dice to the Twink... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) A for having a Spirit cast it for you (A Spirit of Man, obviously) at Force 12, summoning the Spirit capable of casting that Force 12 spell is going to seriously hurt the caster, like as not (At least at our table, where he will spend Edge to resist that summoning). And even assuming the Spirit does so, it will probably take enough damage that he will be ineffective afterwards. Force 6 only gets 12 dice to resist that 10 Physical Damage (So, with bought successes, it takes 7 Damage, and with Average, it takes 6). *shrug*

As for cost/benefit ratios... Hmm, something permanent, that you can carry with you (And can have taken or lost), that never degrades (a Focus) vs. A Permanent Spell that has a very small area of effect, it Degrades hourly, and is Stationary. Not seeing such a big benefit there. Maybe you do, but I do not. Of course, I do not get in the habit of purchasing a High-Force Power Focus anyways. I am pretty happy with a Force 2 Focus.

The other thing is that I am fully aware that there are a two levels to actually playing and discussing shadowrun. The first, what is technically possible, by the book, RAW, munchkinism, rules-fu, whatever you want to call it: In any given game system there are powerful combinations and ways to break the game. I'm sure you all know of things like Pun-Pun, the Omniscifier, locate city nuke, and the time traveling zombie coathanger - to poke fun at The Other Game.

But at the same time. I know that in an actual game, that is about having fun, and getting along with the other people playing, optimization tricks aren't really such a good idea. Most are too complex to explain clearly, the Gm will shoot down others, and the other players may not invite you back. There is a big difference between talking about what is possible within the system, and actually USING it in a game.

Before you start casting insults, saying I have no limits and no controls, I'd like to remind you, Tymeaus Jalynsfein, that there is a huge world of difference between an actual living game full of people, and a theoretical rules discussion. Some people, like myself, self moderate. Its not hard to play a character appropriate to the power level of the game you are in, while at the same time, having an awareness of how broken the system can be, but keeping them seperate.

And I think that is something people on dumpshock tend to forget.

As I said earlier, Udoshi, No worries. I was not actually insulting you (at least not intentionally... after re-reading the post, I can see how you may have thought so), it was just an observation about the tendencies of Dumpshockers. Lets build the most overpowering, rules-raping, uber-twinked character we can, use all the loopholes, and then complain about how broken something is. It is very... Annoying. So I apologize.

I am glad you Self-Moderate. I do too. That is a tactic that is often sorely lacking these days...

Personally, I think that it is a complete waste of time to prepare thought experiments with crazy, out-there concepts, that have no business in actual play. Sure, what is Theroetically Possible can be an entertaining thought experiment, and may point out weaknesses or abuses in a system, but keep them as experiments and out of the actual game discussion. We were discussing Game play, not Theroycrafting.

I was responding to comments on actual play (I think I said that a few times, so it was not a discussion of the Theoretical abuses that can be obtained, but the actual use of the spell in play), and what was possible IN ACTUAL PLAY. I have NEVER seen AMS abused like those who say it is so overpowered. NOT ONCE, in game. I do not care about the Thought experiments at that point, they are obviuoulsy skewed or outright wrong. If arguments are going to be based upon a thought experiment, then there are a TON of things in Shadowrun that should be reworked. Fortunately, most of those things are not actually broken in play. And it has been my experience that AMS is not broken in play; no more so than the standard Mana Static Spell.

All in all, I have thoroughly enjoyed seeing others thoughts, theories, and experiences on the subject. Apologies if I rubbed anyone wrong.

Keep the Faith.

[Bodak]

Typically NPC wards are far higher ratings than things PCs are trying to drag through them and so I don't see how Mana Static is going to help. If its background count is high enough to subdue the ward, it's likely high enough to quench the PC's item too. Is this not the case?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Typically NPC wards are far higher ratings than things PCs are trying to drag through them and so I don't see how Mana Static is going to help. If its background count is high enough to subdue the ward, it's likely high enough to quench the PC's item too. Is this not the case?

For Mana Static, that would be the Case. For an Aspected Mana Static of your Tradition (which your Foci, Anchors and Quickened spells will, or at least should, fall under), these will not be affected.

[Dakka Dakka]

All balance issues aside, I don't like those two spells conceptually. According to the description they create background count (whether aspected or not). BGC is a dual-natured phenomenon. No one spell can affect both planes at the same time. As such these spells should not exist. If they had only an effect on one plane it would no longer be BGC but just an effect similar to BGC. Creating or destroying BGC should be restricted to metamagic techniques.

[Udoshi]

Yeah, it would be a lot meaner if it would be a "sustaining" spell.

This is where I point out that the Spell Design rules are right there in Street Magic, waiting to be used.

[Irion]

@Udoshi
You mean by which the spell is outright illegal?

[Dakka Dakka]

@Udoshi
You mean by which the spell is outright illegal?

not anymore illegal than the stock spell.

[Udoshi]

@Udoshi
You mean by which the spell is outright illegal?

Man, if you're going to claim something is illegal, you're going to have to back it up with more than just snarking.

The spell design rules are MEANT to tweak existing spells in interesting ways. Altering the duration category isn't illegal in the slightest, in fact, its one of the specific provided examples.

Go look shit up before you start calling bullshit.

[Irion]

@Udoshi
Spells only affect ONE PLANE, NEVER BOTH.

[Udoshi]

@Udoshi
Spells only affect ONE PLANE, NEVER BOTH.

A) Quotes please. Unless you can back it up, its just your personal opinion.
B) Background count pretty explicitly effects everything in the area of effect, astral or not. Mana static does not affect something directly itself, but it creates an environmental hazard that does.
I suppose next you're going to tell me that spirits get to ignore ANY and ALL background counts and polluted astral spaces because it only affects one plane at at time.

c) mana barriers spells are also a good example of spells which effect both planes simultaneously. Ditto wards

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I don't have the books with me right now, I'm at my wife's parents house, but in the begining of the magic chapter it says you choose in which plane the spell is being casted. Of course you can cast it twice, but a single spell can't affect both planes unless explicitely said so.

[Yerameyahu]

Wards are not a spell, and AFAIK he's right that spells (directly) affect only one plane. However, the *specific* case of BGC created by Mana Static does seem like an exception. It doesn't saying they create a BGC-like effect, but for-real BGC, and we do indeed know that BGC affects both planes. Of course, I agree with Dakka Dakka: *shouldn't* exist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If nothing else, change it to 'a BGC-like effect'.

The spell design rules are crazy. Just because they can be used to make something, doesn't mean the result is 'legal'. It's all 100% subject to the GM (who is hopefully not dumb).

It's hard to remember here on DS that some discussions are 'Rules as Broken', just like a char-op board. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Irion]

@Udoshi
A) You are jocking, right? Alright, what is next, that we are using W6 dice?

Sidebar page 160. Streetmagic (And I guess several times in the core book)

Spells only have an effect in the plane on
which they are cast. Spells cast on the astral
have no effect on the physical, and vice versa.
Likewise, spells cast in the astral or physical have
no effect on the metaplanes, and vice versa.

B) I could make the same argument vor a manaball. DOES NOT FLY. If you a spell creates something which affects both plane this spell is illegal. The only way to make it legal is for it to be written down in the book. Because it would be a case of special rule trumps general rule.

C) Wards are not spells. (And I do not think your point about mana barriers holds, since it is not stated in the description directly and would contradict a general rule)