Fallout: New Vegas, Revisited. Options

[_Pax._]

I think that's the biggest problem I had with the legion, their not just evil, they are mustache twirling evil. They walk around the world with the basic statement of "our way is right because we are the strongest." It just cries out for a punchy centric rebuttal.

It's the classic "might makes right" world-view.

Humorous fact: ten or twelve years ago, I was part of a Fallout-setting RP campaign using GURPS rules. I made me a little runt of a half-asian, ex-Khan ganger teenage kid, by the name of Darian. All of fifteen years old, but seriously dangerous. On the one hand, surprisingly-good martial arts skill (because skill and agility can beat pure power/Strength, when used right). And on the other hand ... an off-the-shelf Colt Python .357 magnum revolver, and just over two dozen bullets. Combined with a character built to assume full, hardcore Ranged Combat rules, and a GM who decided "range/speed/size modifiers slow the game down too much".

So, yeah. I ended up aiming for peoples' EYES ... and earned the nickname "Headshot Kid". One round to "ready weapon and aim", one round to fire; lather, rinse, repeat. 18 skill, +5 accuracy, -2 for location (normally -5, but he had 3 points of Hit Location maneuver fr that pistol ...). Net skill of 21, so it was "if the pistol doesn't explode in my hands, I hit". Sucker dealt 3d6+5 damage, IIRC. First two points destroys the eye itself, the rest passes to the brain ... where they get multiplied by FIVE. So, anywhere from 25 to 100 damage, averaging 65.

Note, typical human? Has 10 Health - possibly unconscious at 0, possibly dead at -10, and no hope just roll a new character at -50.

...

Three times, out of forty-seven shots, I failed to kill my target on the first shot. Once, because I was aiming for his knee (we wanted a prisoner to question). Twice, because it was the friggin' DeathClaw. ;D

...

...

Anyway, young Darian truly believed in "might makes right". So rather early on, he made a play for the "number one" slot in the party hierarchy, and had a nonlethalmatch with the other combat-oriented character (noone else was a threat). Much to that player's immediate shock, when his character's victory was obvious, Darian immediately surrendered, and accepted the other guy as the leader.

Wrapping my brain around someone who literally accepted, believed in, and even swore by "might makes right" / "the strong rule and the weak obey" .... was a challenge, but also, FUN. Making sure he wasn't just a little prick with a big gun, but was actually a functional, contributory member of the group was some of the best RP challenge I've had in the past twenty years.

[bannockburn]

Yeah, they are too unambiguously evil. NCR isn't evil, but I don't agree with a lot of their ideals. Haven't in Fallout 2 and it hasn't gotten better. It's more difficult not to help some of their causes, though, because arguably it helps a lot of people.
The Legion just wants to see women literally chained to the kitchen and to kill everyone who disagrees with their ideals.

[X-Kalibur]

Yeah, they are too unambiguously evil. NCR isn't evil, but I don't agree with a lot of their ideals. Haven't in Fallout 2 and it hasn't gotten better. It's more difficult not to help some of their causes, though, because arguably it helps a lot of people.
The Legion just wants to see women literally chained to the kitchen and to kill everyone who disagrees with their ideals.

You know what makes it easier? Playing it with someone else there. I can't bring myself to play a dark side character in either KOTOR, for example, unless my friend is there and we laugh at how evil and terrible it is.

[bannockburn]

Yeah. I have no problem playing 'evil' in general. But when it feels forced and stupid, I do take exception. Being evil in KOTOR is always the "I dissect puppys in my basement and kick old ladies down the stairs for fun" evil. Not a grand scheme evil that's more effective in the long run. Legion feels the same way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[CanRay]

As I delved deeper into the Legion, I found that I could agree with certain aspects of their "culture" (artificial and manufactured as it is) in the context of the situation that most of the people would be living in.

I gotta agree with Marcus in the end, however. It'd only last maybe a generation, maybe two, but not more than that. Then shatter into a bunch of tribals again.

EDIT: On the bright side, killing the "Suicide King" of the deck is a nice bit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Critias]

All too often, evil in an RPG is the goofy mustache-twirling bad guy for no reason flavor of evil. Realistically, it should be selfish, and attractively so. But so many RPGs give you money and loot hand over fist (eventually) that going the evil route is basically pointless -- you really, literally, are just being evil for no reason.

[X-Kalibur]

All too often, evil in an RPG is the goofy mustache-twirling bad guy for no reason flavor of evil. Realistically, it should be selfish, and attractively so. But so many RPGs give you money and loot hand over fist (eventually) that going the evil route is basically pointless -- you really, literally, are just being evil for no reason.

I'm reminded of something I read (possibly in the Bible?) that they wanted to do with the first Fallout and got stymied on. Remember Junktown? Originally they wanted it to be so that at the end, if you helped Killian Darkwater retain control of the town he runs it into the ground with his poor leadership and iron fisted tactics. Whereas if you help Gizmo instead the town flourishes. A case where what is good and evil is already ambiguous as presented to you and the outcome very different from what you might expect.

[Irion]

I think that's the biggest problem I had with the legion, their not just evil, they are mustache twirling evil. They walk around the world with the basic statement of "our way is right because we are the strongest." It just cries out for a punchy centric rebuttal.

To be fair, the NCR is not that much better in this regard...
(I for my part could never do legion or house, because it involves killing the brotherhood. Thats just an asshole thing to do after doing their quest and espacially after doing veronicas quests...)

Anyhow, the main story was one of the main weaknesses in my book.
It is like: Why the fuck should I search for something which got me shot in the head in the first place?

I felt a deeper connection to Goodsprings than to either the NCR, Legion, House etc.
Maybe Novac, too...
Than the brotherhood...But they just too few NPCs.
And of course the followers.

In Fallout 3 you get to go to Megaton and if you are not doing it for your father you can do it for the people of Megaton. Feels like a motivation.

I prefere it if there is only one "big" ending but your descions impact the epiloge.
For example if the legion would win anyhow but you could evacuate towns etc. And denpending on what you did or didn't it gets harder/more people die or it goes smothly. Or you may play for the legion and make sure no NCR scum gets away.

The only time I really felt the conflict between the legion and the NCR was in nippton...

[Stahlseele]

Or you could yourself up as the big head-honcho too.
I usually chose that route because i was the only half way capable person around for miles after house . . and he deserved being killed off <.<

[Blade]

Fallout 1 and 2 also had "mustache twirling" evil guys, who were the main antagonists but that you could decide to join at one point (though I don't remember if it was an option in the second). There are some areas with a shades of grey morality, but it's no The Witcher.

[Irion]

@Blade
Fallout 1 hat this possibility, yes. But it was more or less the "you died" ending.
Fallout 2 didn't. But since they wanted to exterminate you and your tribe, joining them would make kind of no sense.

Fallout has kind of too heroic endings for my taste... Liked the dead money DLC in that matter.

Oh, and planescape torment has to be mentioned talking grey in grey...

[almost normal]

Witcher? Really? Grimdark isn't grey, it's just bad.

Part of what made NV so good was that all factions had their downsides. The NCR was quickly becoming a muddled, slow, and saber-rattling douche power, which was what got the world wasted in the first place.

The Legion was the more pure organization, which made them all the more creepy. They had a clear goal, read their history books, and weren't going to make the same mistakes twice.

House's plan makes people the happiest consumers they could possibly be, which again, is part of what got the world wasted.

Basically, all the Wanderer can do is make the world better while he's around, and hope for the best. There's no grand epic 'And now the world is safe' bullshit that you'll find in jRPGs (Or can we just start calling them Jr. RPGs?) or euro-rpgs. And thats what makes the Fallout series great.

[Irion]

@almost normal
NCR backside is a bit hidden. But they are rotting from the inside. With casidy you learn that for example the van grafs and the crimson caravan gets away with looting casidys caravan and if you bring it to the NCR, well... the blackletter better deals.

If you go to the farms south of New vegas and expose the gambler/cheater the officer just shoots him. (When I did this mission the guy was asleep and the NCR Soldier shot a sleeping man in the back)
If you follow the quest checking up on the ranger outpost, an old ranger is telling you the story about Bramin Barons beeing too gready and sending young men and women out to die for a wasteland they would never be able to hold.

[almost normal]

Yep.

[CanRay]

I was really worried "The Burned Man" would be one of the mustache twirlers, and was pleasantly surprised by him.

Then the Bible quotes started and, "Yep, there's the evil bastard we've all heard about. DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN!"

[X-Kalibur]

I was really worried "The Burned Man" would be one of the mustache twirlers, and was pleasantly surprised by him.

Then the Bible quotes started and, "Yep, there's the evil bastard we've all heard about. DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN!"

Graham was a great character. So was Ulysses too. Not sure whom I like more.

[Irion]

@X-Kalibur
Ulysses for me. But I have to admit it was more about the introduction. Trying to find every scratch of information in order to figuer out against whom you actually fight. Espacially if you were playing the other DLCs.

[X-Kalibur]

It was nice how they tied in Ulysses, Christina, and Father Elijah throughout the DLC (minus Honest Hearts).

[StealthSigma]

The real trick is getting all the gold bricks out.

The real trick is selling all the gold bricks once you got them out.

--

To be fair, the NCR is not that much better in this regard...
(I for my part could never do legion or house, because it involves killing the brotherhood. Thats just an asshole thing to do after doing their quest and espacially after doing veronicas quests...)

Wait... what? I had Brotherhood helping out the NCR at the dam.

[CanRay]

The real trick is selling all the gold bricks once you got them out.

The Gunrunners and The Gunrunner's Arsenal is your friend! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[StealthSigma]

The Gunrunners and The Gunrunner's Arsenal is your friend! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I wasn't talking about whether they could cover the price of the gold bar but rather how many gold bars you could sell at once before needing to wait for them to replenish their caps. For those that use an extradimensional storage mod, pulling them all out is trivially easy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

The real trick is selling all the gold bricks once you got them out.

--



Wait... what? I had Brotherhood helping out the NCR at the dam.

If you side with House or the Legion you HAVE to destroy the Brotherhood. NCR you can get allied with the Brotherhood and Yes Man you can choose to ignore them.

[almost normal]

NCR can ally with the Brotherhood if you didn't actually help the Brotherhood. It's a shame there wasn't a BOS option.

[_Pax._]

NCR can ally with the Brotherhood if you didn't actually help the Brotherhood. It's a shame there wasn't a BOS option.

NCR and BOS can work together, even if you DO help the BOS. Yes, even with that Ranger - with a good enough Speech skill, you can bluff him into going away - without revealing the BOS involvement, either.

[X-Kalibur]

NCR and BOS can work together, even if you DO help the BOS. Yes, even with that Ranger - with a good enough Speech skill, you can bluff him into going away - without revealing the BOS involvement, either.

You can also just break his radio when he isn't looking.