Cyberzombie and Cloning Options

[Rajaat99]

I recently changed a pys adept into a cyberzombie, sort of against her will.
She has an idea that she wants to know if it will work. I told her she'll have to find out in character, but in reality I don't know myself.
First, I remember reading somewhere that cloned bodies aren't conscious and are kept alive by medical machines. She wants to know if she can clone herself and have some magicians put her astral form, soul, into the cloned body, thus ridding her of her cyberzombie body.
What do you dumpshockers think? Possible?

[Darkest Angel]

Easier to put her in touch with Aleph. (Threats 2)

[nezumi]

I would say anything you, as the GM want to allow, is possible. Personally, I think it would be pretty neat as an adventure (and a world changing one at that). It would be mighty expensive and difficult, but with all the gear in the cyberzombie body, that should help that. It would also be neat if she moves into this new body with all of her essence holes still there, forcing her to do some special quests to help return her to full power.

[spotlite]

All canon arguments aside, it sounds like a cool idea. I like what nezumi said about possibilities, other ideas might be to allow her to transfer, requiring her and all the mages involved go on an initiate quest (and if you can wangle it so all the other players go as well, so much the better), remembering that the more people go, the harder it is to succeed. It sounds like that ritual would need a hell of a lot of power, so that would be a lot of people as well, or at least a few people with some mondo foci and powers.

bear in mind, as well, that you are setting what could be a dangerous precedent, so be careful to make the point that its very, very hard - it will cost a LOT, one way or another, in money and favours etc - and probably a one-off. If necessary, kill or otherwise render useless (e.g. stripped of power, brain damage) all the mages involved in the ritual. If this becomes a documentable technique or even a known one, there are going to be all kinds of problems - effectively immortal executives or bad guys.

Where would it end? If they can transfer a spirit, they can work out a way to store one, at least for a time. If they can work out a way to do that, they can probably work how to 'precast' the spell, so that even if you shoot a target through the head, killing him instantly, an anchored spell or foci may activate transferring his spirit over to the waiting clone. Of course, it might only work for Awakened beings as only their spirit is strong enough or somesuch, but even that would still be quite dangerous.

I like the idea, but if you allow players to do it, you have to allow bad guys the chance to do it, and vice versa. It might be next to impossible for the NPCs to manage it, but if the players did, then they can, however much time or resources or however many flat out lucky rolls it takes.

[Rajaat99]

[BitBasher]

Well, fundamentally I thing that the GM was kind fo wrong for forcing on her character something which she seems to not have any fun doing.

By canon rules there is no such thing as a viable clone in shadowrun. A clone cannot be made that is actually alive.

The GM however can actually do whatever he wants.

[LaughingTiger]

Oooooooooooooooo

What is the clone has an astral presence as well? I know clones aren't viable, but if with this one kinda is, due to the process it's being cloned for? Then you have to decide what to do.. push out one astral presence from the body so the old tattered one can find a home OR find a way to merge the two of them? Kind of moral delima that would require the same kinda adventures. The astral "presence" could even become part of the character.. a second personality or ghost like thing or some such.

[Rajaat99]

[Rajaat99]

[LaughingTiger]

[mfb]

i'd do the opposite. the operation is a success, she wakes up in her new body, everything is cool--and then, the CZ sits up and looks around.

if you're gonna do this, i'd make her pay through the nose for it. i'd strip her of her initiation grades completely, start her off with only the basic 6 pp.

for a truly interesting look at souls-as-data, check out the Ghost series by LE Modessit.

[Voran]

If her essence is an indicator of her 'soul', and she's a cyberzom with low, if not sub-zero essence, does she really have a soul that can be transferred?

[Herald of Verjig...]

A negative quantity in a container is not a very sensible paradigm (ignoring some interesting quantum properties). If you see essence as the link between flesh and spirit, then negative essence merely means there is a repulsive force between the two and it takes specialized ritual magic to overcome that force. This perspective has drawbacks, like it is easy to argue essence return in such a system, but provides a simple explanation of how cybermancy works.

[Ancient History]

This has been discussed to some degree, but I'll put in my two cents:

You cannot remove the spirit from one body and place it in another body. The closest that has ever been attempted to this involved Thomas Roxburough of AZT.

Now theoretically if you has a living, healthy body without a conscious mind <a clone would not be viable for this, and cloning technology still hasn't overcome a few wee hurdles>, and your cyberzombie was in an astral rift so that they could project, and said cyberzombie was a magician with the metamagic power of Possessing, then the cyberzombie's astral form could possess the body.

Now, IF that body was treated with the same binding spells that the typical cyberzombie has...then the astral form might be "trapped" in the host body and fairly well off. Except that their connection to their own body might still be intact, in which case if the cyberzombie body dies, so do they.

[Lilt]

Essence isn't so-much a measure of soul, but your soul's attachment to your body. Making CZs is essentially binding your soul to your body with XXX-tra strong magic.

The way I'd go about it is as follows:
She gets the clone made (They can set-up good enough wards that shedim won't be poking around the cloning facility regularily)
She finds the right people (A group of mages capible of cybermancy)
She finds a free spirit from the metaplane of the dead with the astral gateway power (Like it's not easy :D)
She gets the free spirit to use the astral gateway power on both bodies
She projects to the metaplane of the dead and attempts to pursuade the parts of her soul that left to come back
The mages place a cybermantic bond around both bodies
She gets the mages to dispel the bonds on her old body (& kill it for added effect)
The mages tighten the bonds so that they are to the new body.
She returns from the quest, brought back by the spirit, who forces her essence into her new body with the help of the cybermancy mages.

The last step is a bit weak. It would be better if she was an initiate who knew Posession metamagic.

[Voran]

Would she get a full 6 essence back? I'd still think she'd be stuck at whatever essence she had been reduced to. She might not have to deal with the physical cyberattachments, but she probably wouldn't get a free reset of essence just because she's in a clone body.

[Entropy Kid]

Cyberzombies are rad! (yes, I just said "rad") so this caught my attention.

I don't like this scenario; although I mess with a lot of canon things, I don't change magic (much) or major setting elements. Then again, anyone can do whatever they want in their game, so that doesn't matter.

[Lilt]

I was thinking she'd get her magic and essence back from her trip to the plane of the dead.

[BitBasher]

Essence in canon, never, ever comes back period. Furthermore if her essence dropped to or below zero she is permanently mundane, her magic is lost forever.

[Ancient History]

Certs? I dinnae recall that. Will have to relook some rules. Will dissapoint all those brave fools wishing to Initiate and then become cyberzombies.

[BitBasher]

I believe that's in the main book. I havea bookshelf coming in tomorrow so I can unpack all my SR books and be less of a gimp :D

[Anymage]

The description of the cyberzombie ritual says that it strips all the character's magic, IIRC. (And since cyberzombiedom is the only way to stick around after essence hits zero, that's the only place it could really be.) And it's on P. 57, M&M, last sentence of Magical Resistance for those who want to be niggling about it.

I can't comment on the astral or spiritual viability of clones, except to say that cellular degeneration might make cloning risky. But considering what had happened to the character, I would have no problem with letting him do such a thing after a grueling metaplanar quest. I'd even let ritual sorcery or some metamagical ritual technique open up an astral gateway for him. After all, astral quests give you as the GM an excuse to include pointless funky settings, and are the catch-all for allowing strange magical effects.

[Herald of Verjig...]

There has been debate about how acceptable such a process is, but I have a different angle you need to consider.

Attributes, my basic guide.
A quote has been given that once cyberzombied, a mage is no longer magically capable. Keep that after the massively spirit and ritual aided clonal possession. If you are generous, allow the totem (or another source of power) to let the character atone through initiation, starting at MR of 1.

Mental attributes should be unchanged.

All physical attributes should be set to racial norm or less. Assuming human, I would insist that the clone's physical attributes be at best 3 before and immediately after the reunification.

[Paul]

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[3278]