Spawning in the 6th World, Teen Pregnancies, Prenatal, and other such issues. Options

[bibliophile20]

A thought brought up by this post: Pregnancies in the 6th World. I read the bit in Conspiracy Theories about how Humanis has a few "clinics" that will make sure the next generation of metas doesn't survive to breed, but, beyond that, how does the 6th World treat pregnancies?

Let me expand on this:
At present, OB-GYNs are having problems staying in practice, due to the skyrocketing costs of insurance for their specialty. Does that trend continue into the 6th World, in the ever present theme of the "haves and have-nots", meaning that OB-GYNs live in mortal fear of even seeing a SINless (or someone later proven to having a fake SIN) because that could drive their insurance up? Has mid-wifery come back as a profession as a result (at least for the SINless), having been driven out of existence in the US by the medical profession in the early 20th?

Sexual education in the US is a joke at the present, due to hamstringing of teaching actual preventative measures by certain social factors; has that changed? And in which ways? Do teens (especially ork teens) have actual access to reliable contraceptives and education thereof? (especially since Humanis and other anti-meta groups that will see that as a way to keep the metas from breeding out of control).

Right now, there's an entire cultural tradition of consumerism around pregnancy and babies; baby showers, for one example, or the inundation of advertisements, over and above the flood currently deemed as the norm, for baby products? How much worse has that gotten? Cradle to the grave brand loyalty isn't just an idea in the 6th World, it's a way of life--what sort of tricks do the megas pull to increase that market share?

Metatype differences: orks have short, multiple birth pregnancies and elves have long single birth pregnancies; these are both shifts from the "traditional" 9 months that are currently enshrined in pop culture (to the extent that, whoever wrote the news articles on pg 45 of Ghost Cartels forgot that orks have a shorter pregnancy... or, alternatively, to reporters at "Newzbyte", orks aren't really people worth reporting on). How has this changed the expectations and medical knowledge? Are there now "What to Expect When You're Expecting" editions for orks and elves? And what happens when one metatype has kids from another metatype? (such as an ork woman carrying an elf baby, for the most extreme example, or even just an elven woman carrying a human baby; is the pregnancy period based on the mother, or the baby?)

Also, finally, on a game mechanic level, I was thinking that, for the NPC that inspired this question to begin with, to model with the game mechanics the, well, physical and hormonal changes that a pregnant woman has to deal with, over the course of the pregnancy, temporarily giving her the Bi-Polar and Adiposis negative qualities ("One minute I'm the best man in the world, and five minutes later I'm the villain that did this to her!")

Thoughts?

[CanRay]

My brain hurts.

You also forgot the "Baby Factories" that Humanis has going on in special camps in order to keep the human line pure. And "properly educated".

[bibliophile20]

My brain hurts..

Wait, I just managed to make CanRay's brain hurt? Do I get an achievement or a firing squad?

[ShadowJackal]

My head hurts too.

As for birth control right now IRL all the rage is Mirena, its a 5 year little device that is the most effective contraception aside from having your uterus removed (Even more so than a tubal ligation.) I have no doubts that this type of thing will be even more widely available and probably have longer effects. I also always kind of figured a sub-dermal contraceptive would be something that many mothers would chose to give to their daughters upon puberty. Its good for 3 years, don't have to worry about anything.

I also wonder if a chemical option becomes available for rendering someone infertile by choice. There's certainly enough people that do not want children that I could see this option becoming something we see in our lifetime and certainly not beyond the realm of the sixth world.

I can easily see feminist groups making a concerted effort to fund free and low cost women's care much like PP today. I just don't see how something like this wouldn't exist in the Sixth World. If it didn't, there would be some seriously crazy rates of teen pregnancy because with sex being a non-taboo you gotta wonder how young they start (*shudder*)

Just a few random thoughts.

Oh! Also, Midwifery is actually more common today than you might imagine. Nearly all of my friends who have had children have had a midwife rather than a doctor (I think I know one that used a doctor out of a dozen or so). Its very much the thing "To do" and not just for hippies, lots of normal folks are going that route. I think you make a valid point about it but I think you're probably thinking more of a doula because they do not require any medical licenses.

[MK Ultra]

Previous editions stated that orks sometimes have mixed 'litters' or orks and humans (most of which will later goblinize during puberty). The time or pregnance remains the same, obviously, I guess that also applies to other metatypes, though a Trollbaby probably has to bee taken early from any non troll mother. Nothing is said aboout the need of these human siblings to need medical assistance due to coming out early, but it would make a lot of sense to me.

The original chapter on the Human Nation conspiracy in Treats also sais that the HN health clinics do provide free contraceptives (somtimes w/o the recipients knowledge).

[hobgoblin]

I wonder if those goblinized orcs, do they have human lifespans?

[ravensmuse]

From the perspective of someone that has worked and is working in the insurance industry...

Also, everything I say is generalized, is not medical advice, could vary company to company, county state, state to country...in other words, I am not a doctor nor medical professional. Also, this is in regards to the States. Dig?

OBGs and Midwives and Things

OBGs are decreasing, and you are seeing an upswing in other forms of delivery services. It is an insurance thing.

In the Sixth World, however, I honestly can't see that happening as much. It doesn't seem as though there's a lot of consumer protection out there (and I'm sure there's lots of "assurances"; "oh, this procedure is totally safe! The Corporate Court cleared up those charges years ago!") and the government is essentially a toothless dog in the fight. Though I do seem to remember from one book or another that mentioned either the FDA or the CDC had remained independent and essentially became a mini-corp on their own...but that's another thread.

Birth Control

What I do see here though is, as with anything in Shadowrun, the gap between the rich and the poor and the SINless getting wider and wider. Corper kids can essentially go to the OBG once they're sexually active and fsk with their systems as much as they like; remove cycles, change cycles, easier cycles, etc, etc. They mention in Augmentation, for example, that it's possible to give transgender folks fully operational (though infertile) uteri, so I can't imagine what they can't do.

For corporate wage slaves and folks who are independent of the corporate system but still have teh monies can have all sorts of similar procedures done (though I'd hate to see the hoops wageslaves would have to jump through). Maybe not to the extent that being the daughter of a CEO can get you, but pretty darn close. What Tehana mentioned about IUDs is probably used extensively, though something similar to Mirena is probably more common than they.

Once you get into the wild and shady side of having low income / no income / what income, that's when you start getting sketchy (this is Shadowrun, after all). You're essentially taking your own health into your own hands. Shadowrunners and folks with connections can probably play the system and get in with shadow clinics, boarded docs working in the shadows, or the upper end of street docs. For the folks minus those connections...? Eh, think of some of the worst medical horror stories you've heard, and start adding details.

Which brings to mind...

Welfare

Would there be a welfare system, similar to our own Medicaid / Medicare / Social Security system? Dunno. If they do, I can't see it being worth a damn. The regulations and qualifications for them are strict enough in our world; I can't imagine one where most insurance / doctors / care is handled by the heavy hand of a corporation. And whatever the corp can't strong-arm, they'll go with marketing campaigns to lower popular opinion against.

In other words, why don't you just be a good citizen, get a job, and get some insurance, neh?

Metatypes and Babies

I'm sure that there would be specialists; with multiple races running about, Changelings, drakes, weird nano-fsking, all of those sorts of wonders, I bet the medical field exploded after the Awakening. Ork OBGs and pediatricians would probably be a dime a dozen, honestly, while an elven one would probably be heavily sought after for their experience (I imagine that elven babies probably require a lot of specialized attention). Heck, forget even the specialists; general practitioners were probably coming up with new disciplines left and right!

Oh, and I don't think orkers can have elven kids. Again, one of the books - can't remember which - mentions that at one point they've figured out the difference between UGE and Goblinization (and by now, probably Surge and drake manifestations) and have figured out why humans don't express into elves or orks into dwarves.

Can't think of what the societal movements regarding baby showers and all of that would be - totally not my field of experience, haha.

[ravensmuse]

I wonder if those goblinized orcs, do they have human lifespans?

I think SR4A mentions that yes, humans goblinized into Orks do retain human life expectancy.

[bibliophile20]

@ravensmuse: Good stuff, and exactly what I was asking about. And I've heard lots and lots of medical horror stories; Dad's been telling me them for years, especially about his time working for the VA and when the HMOs started taking over. I shudder to think of how cold and inhumane HMOs have become in Shadowrun...

However, with this:

Oh, and I don't think orkers can have elven kids. Again, one of the books - can't remember which - mentions that at one point they've figured out the difference between UGE and Goblinization (and by now, probably Surge and drake manifestations) and have figured out why humans don't express into elves or orks into dwarves.

I thought that interracial couples were interfertile, and that the kids could be from either metatype. I.e. if an elf and an ork get together, the resulting kids could be either orks or elves; the question then being, does the resulting pregnancy's length depend on the metatype of the mother or of the child? (i.e. in the above example, if an elven woman had a child with an ork man, would an ork baby from that pairing only need a pregnancy of 6 months? Or, since it's in an elven uterus, does the baby stay for the full period of 11-12 months that would be the norm for a straight elven pregnancy?)

[hobgoblin]

I think SR4A mentions that yes, humans goblinized into Orks do retain human life expectancy.

Yep. But the examples given were people that grew to adulthood as humans, and then goblinized during the awakening.

What i am thinking about are humans born as part of ork litters, that then go on to goblinize.

[CanRay]

Wait, I just managed to make CanRay's brain hurt? Do I get an achievement or a firing squad?

*Beep-Boop* Achievement Unlocked: "Divide By Cucumber Error" - 25G

[ShadowJackal]

However, with this:

I thought that interracial couples were interfertile, and that the kids could be from either metatype. I.e. if an elf and an ork get together, the resulting kids could be either orks or elves; the question then being, does the resulting pregnancy's length depend on the metatype of the mother or of the child? (i.e. in the above example, if an elven woman had a child with an ork man, would an ork baby from that pairing only need a pregnancy of 6 months? Or, since it's in an elven uterus, does the baby stay for the full period of 11-12 months that would be the norm for a straight elven pregnancy?)

I'm no expert beyond being a woman who is pretty well versed in feminine health but, it would be based on the child. A woman's body holds a baby to it's term, not to the woman's. A uterus is simply a carrying device and once the child reaches maturity the fetus sends chemicals to the woman's body that alerts the woman's body to begin labor. At least if we're talking biologically.

Can I just say its really weird to talk this stuff with boys? Not to sound like a modest molly but this is so weird LOL!

[CanRay]

Would you rather we get immature about it like most men?

[ShadowJackal]

Would you rather we get immature about it like most men?

No. I'd have to leave then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Just weird to have to explain this stuff to guys hehe!

[ChewyGranola]

I would imagine that there is a ton of interesting birth control out there for people. Implanted devices that last until removed/deactivated, birth control for guys (finally!), specialists by metatype, etc.

There could be a welfare system of some kind in place, depending on the nation. I bet the PCC has kick-ass health care coverage for all shareholders, and I can see Sioux and other NANs following suit. The UCAS probably uses welfare as a way to get some power over the people from the corps, offering free SINs to people who sign up, portraying the government as those who care, and I would imagine that the CAS is too strong on states rights to really have welfare. Maybe a couple of states down there do tho.

[CanRay]

How are those countries going to pay for said Welfare?

[bibliophile20]

I'm no expert beyond being a woman who is pretty well versed in feminine health but, it would be based on the child. A woman's body holds a baby to it's term, not to the woman's. A uterus is simply a carrying device and once the child reaches maturity the fetus sends chemicals to the woman's body that alerts the woman's body to begin labor. At least if we're talking biologically.

hmm... that certainly gives new insight into the "miscarriages" and "nonviable premature births" that they keep pointing to as signs of meta-selective infanticide; if a human woman gives birth to a human baby at 6 months, the baby is not going to be viable, but, if it were an ork baby, it'd be right on schedule--and if the parents are card-carrying meta-haters, it's time for them to make a choice.

Can I just say its really weird to talk this stuff with boys? Not to sound like a modest molly but this is so weird LOL!

And it's sad that a mature discussion of the topic is "weird"--and actually fits into my question about sex education in the 2070s; right now, we have this Puritain-holdover attitude about the whole topic as being "private" and "not fit for public discourse". Will those attitudes continue to be seen in the 6th World?

[ShadowJackal]

...birth control for guys (finally!),

I don't know that we'll ever see that. I mean, as a woman, how can I trust my partner actually isn't lying, he's not the one who has to have a baby and care for it. Heck, guys lie about wearing protection enough, much less a medication.

[CanRay]

Well, at least Same-Sex and Poly Relationships aren't verboten any longer in the Sixth World.

Hell, IIRC, a Lesbian Couple had a child by DNA-Mixing and a Vat-Grown Baby.

I don't know that we'll ever see that. I mean, as a woman, how can I trust my partner actually isn't lying, he's not the one who has to have a baby and care for it. Heck, guys lie about wearing protection enough, much less a medication.

Sadly far too true. And, with HIV being cured by 2050s and earlier... There goes the major boogyman.

[ShadowJackal]

hmm... that certainly gives new insight into the "miscarriages" and "nonviable premature births" that they keep pointing to as signs of meta-selective infanticide; if a human woman gives birth to a human baby at 6 months, the baby is not going to be viable, but, if it were an ork baby, it'd be right on schedule--and if the parents are card-carrying meta-haters, it's time for them to make a choice.

A human baby would absolutely be viable at 6 months, premature birth happens very often, children today are viable at 4-5 months quite often, its rough but with advances in medicine I wouldn't call it out of the question in the sixth world. And belief is that most miscarriages before the second trimester are nonviable and are not caused by external forces (within reason).

And it's sad that a mature discussion of the topic is "weird"--and actually fits into my question about sex education in the 2070s; right now, we have this Puritain-holdover attitude about the whole topic as being "private" and "not fit for public discourse". Will those attitudes continue to be seen in the 6th World?

It was a joke. It felt a little like walking into a room of boys and explaining parts of the female reproductive system. I can't imagine that most men could walk into a room full of women and start explaining their reproductive system without getting a little flush. It was said in jest (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

To your question as to if the puritan-esque beliefs will hold over, you have to question what major religions will hold on the subject. AKA If the Catholics still say that birth control is a no no, Catholics are still probably going to abstain from it. I could see the RCC loosening up on that but yeah, can of worms.

[kzt]

How are those countries going to pay for said Welfare?

Same way it worked in the 1800s and early 1900s. Mutual societies, churches, charity, etc. Plus workhouses, etc.

[ChewyGranola]

How are those countries going to pay for said Welfare?

Well, you can still tax the populace, and that includes corporate execs. A smart country would not allow the big earning execs, at least the ones that live in the country, to be anything other than dual national/corporate citizens, therefore subject to taxes. Plus, all the non-extraterritorial AA, A, and lower corps still pay taxes. Don't some countries charge the megas for their extraterritorial enclaves (Quebec?)?. I would imagine something like this would be common practice, but maybe I am placing too much faith in the Sixth World governments. All I know is the governments have to have some kind of revenue stream, or else none of them could do ANYTHING. the UCAS is described in particular as still having carrier battlegroups, divisions of soldiers, R&D, the myriad of departments of government the modern US gov does, so the money comes from somewhere. Do any books talk about this?

Oh, and men can't always trust that a woman is taking her birth control either. Has happened to me (luckily no baby) and millions of other men. Women don't always take it consistently or correctly, or it might not work. I would prefer for both partners to have access to birth control. But, hell I am married now and planning on having kids, so I guess I don't really care for me.

[kzt]

A human baby would absolutely be viable at 6 months, premature birth happens very often, children today are viable at 4-5 months quite often, its rough but with advances in medicine I wouldn't call it out of the question in the sixth world. And belief is that most miscarriages before the second trimester are nonviable and are not caused by external forces (within reason).

Currently the critical point is week 23. At week 24 a good NICU has a reasonable chance of discharging a living child, with survival odds drastically increasing at 26 weeks. At week 23 a good NICU has a shot. Before week 23 even the best have a bad success rate, though there have been a very few survivors at 21 weeks. Though the earlier you go the more "issues" the kid will likely have and the cost of care is very high.

[ShadowJackal]

Currently the critical point is week 23. At week 24 a good NICU has a reasonable chance of discharging a living child, with survival odds drastically increasing at 26 weeks. At week 23 a good NICU has a shot. Before week 23 even the best have a bad success rate, though there have been a very few survivors at 21 weeks. Though the earlier you go the more "issues" the kid will likely have and the cost of care is very high.

Yeah I was a little ambitious. I had an ex who was born around there and his sister was born right around 21 or 22 weeks if I recall correctly. It was a pretty big deal then, she was on the news and everything. That was 25+ years ago though. They both had "issues" to put it kindly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

tl;dr shoulda wikied.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As a side note, the Orc "Litters" Have gone away. It's mentioned in one of the books.. Augmentation or... Companion one. But someone noticed that the prevelence of the multiple births by orcs has tapered off, and the way it did was ---not--- natrual.

What ever 'changed' the Orc birthrate was done TO them.


Also remember as much as the 'urban sprawl' is part of the Shadowrun setting, world population is actually DOWN from what we have now. The outbreaks of Vitas knocked the population down by about 50% of what ever it'd hit before they swept through. So, while there's alot out there, alot of it's not. So, the 'strain' on the governments isn't there quite so much.

And as pointed out, the Triple A's have extraterritoriality, but the double A's and "A's and everything else don't. So they are taxed. I'd wager that the closer you get to AAA the higher your taxes are. When you're hitting AA status, the taxes alone are probably one of your greatest motivations to make AAA status.

As for different babies and what not. I don't see Elven Babies being much of a problem. they'd probably come out as close to human as you can get. Dwarf babies have some complications today. Orc... well they're probably pretty easy if you have medicalcare.

I'd worry about the Trolls. Birthing them must be really hard on the mothers and the baby both. ANd lets not even get into the metavariants... satyrs.. giants... Oni.. ect.