New GM, a few questions (SR3), Decking, Rigging, Great Dragons Options

[Hrafn]

Hi, new GM here. Our group has started playing SR3 since someone found all the books they had, and we decided to actually use them.

I have been the GM, and run 2 runs: An on-site datasteal, that the team did pretty well, and a sabotage mission that while successful, ended with one character drowning while trying to swim to shore, and another gunned down by an attack helicopter. All in all, great fun has still been had by the entire group. But I had a few questions:

1. I've been reading the rules, and have read discussions about SR3 on other forums, and I get the impression that the decking rules are broken or something? I don't understand, because after learning the rules, everything seems to work fine so long as my Decker and I are familiar with the system operations (which we decided to use a cheat sheet to keep track of).

I figure most places wouldn't put truly valuable data on the grid, so our Decker has to b&e with the rest of the team. Once in the matrix, I just run everyone's initiative in regular order, matrix or real world.

Basically, I guess my question is, am I doing it wrong? Because I have not had nearly the headache I expected to have when reading on forums about it.

2. Riggers. If a rigger is driving a drone or vehicle, do they get to use control pool to dodge gunfire and use gunnery? Or do they only get to use control pool on driving tests? We are confused over whether drones can dodge, and if so, if you use combat pool or control pool.

2a. Can riggers controlling drones use stealth at all?

3. Not expected to come up anytime soon. Our group likes to have all the cards on the table so to speak, so we're not fans of fiat when it comes to npcs (we are mostly 'S' when it comes to GNS theory). I've read a lot about dragons and great dragons (we have dragons of the sixth world), and while it says dragons and great dragons have very high magic attributes and sorcery skills, it doesn't really give any hard stats. So my question is, what *is* a great dragon's sorcery skill? Unarmed combat?

Again, not likely to ever come up, but I am very curious.

Takk.

[Moirdryd]

1) nope, you're doing the Matrix fine and dandy. Most of the matrix related issues are ones of Decker needing too much time. If GM and Player are both familiar with Matrix rules and operations list and you have your hosts worked out in advance with the IC rules memorised or noted then Matrix flow will fit in fine. Data searches can be cumbersome but again, once you get familiar with them it takes all of a few minutes to resolve. Well done for your successful Matrix integration (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

2) Yes drones can Dodge using Control Pool dice IF the Rigger is inhabiting the Drone ONLY, if it's on DogBrain tough. The Control pool can also be used by a Rigger for any active rigging based action so Driving, Dodging incoming fire and Gunnery.

2a) yes, drones can. However don't forget the perception tests are modified as per the chart for things like the Drone's size ect. You can also stealth vehicles too, but again it's more often difficult or not. In both cases this is a roll control pool Cannot be used for. Also note that Sensor Systems only care about your Signature and not any Steath roll.

3) dragons you can go with the stats out of the book, give them a sorcery that feels right for the team (but I'd say 4-6) and maybe an initiation grade or two. If you want a more powerful Dragon without it being a Great then Sorcery 8, Initiate 4 is probably good enough. Great Dragons you won't need Stats for, if the Runners go toe to toe with a Great they will lose. If you Really need Great Dragon Stats then the Weakest has the Physical stats listed in Critters / BBB, a Sorcery of 10 a Conjuring of 10 around 12 grades of Initiation (Masking, Centering, Quickening, shielding, Reflecting, Cleansing, Anchoring, Divining, Invoking and everything from SOTA 2063) likely at least 3 spells from each category and sub category at force 12 - 16 several of which will be quickened and others will be anchored, also there will like be around 4 Force 10-12 Greatform Elementals on standby (one of each type) and possibley an Ally Spirit as well.

[Kagetenshi]

1. I've been reading the rules, and have read discussions about SR3 on other forums, and I get the impression that the decking rules are broken or something? I don't understand, because after learning the rules, everything seems to work fine so long as my Decker and I are familiar with the system operations (which we decided to use a cheat sheet to keep track of).
[…]
Basically, I guess my question is, am I doing it wrong? Because I have not had nearly the headache I expected to have when reading on forums about it.

1) nope, you're doing the Matrix fine and dandy. Most of the matrix related issues are ones of Decker needing too much time. If GM and Player are both familiar with Matrix rules and operations list and you have your hosts worked out in advance with the IC rules memorised or noted then Matrix flow will fit in fine. Data searches can be cumbersome but again, once you get familiar with them it takes all of a few minutes to resolve. Well done for your successful Matrix integration (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's not quite as tidy as all that—notable legitimate issues include the fact that the way the Tally system works means it's essentially never worthwhile to engage in cybercombat, the fact that the ways you can challenge a strong decker aren't very fun (a bunch of both sides rolling large numbers of dice against huge TNs until someone gets successes), and the whole monkeyright business. That said, yeah, in normal use they're just not as bad as they've been made out to be.

2. Riggers. If a rigger is driving a drone or vehicle, do they get to use control pool to dodge gunfire and use gunnery?

To dodge, yes. Only Combat Pool may be used for Gunnery. The fact that defense and attack come out of different pools is part of what makes Riggers so strong.

We are confused over whether drones can dodge, and if so, if you use combat pool or control pool.

Like Moirdryd says, drones themselves cannot dodge (incidentally, neither can non-rigger drivers), but Riggers who are jumped into drones (captain's chair isn't enough) can dodge with them.

2a. Can riggers controlling drones use stealth at all?

I'm pretty sure this is one of those areas that simply isn't addressed in the rules. When it came up in our game, we permitted use of Stealth (and the relevant vehicle skill could be used to default), but I don't remember that as having had any basis in canon text.

3. Not expected to come up anytime soon. Our group likes to have all the cards on the table so to speak, so we're not fans of fiat when it comes to npcs (we are mostly 'S' when it comes to GNS theory). I've read a lot about dragons and great dragons (we have dragons of the sixth world), and while it says dragons and great dragons have very high magic attributes and sorcery skills, it doesn't really give any hard stats. So my question is, what *is* a great dragon's sorcery skill? Unarmed combat?

Again, not likely to ever come up, but I am very curious.

Well, Harlequin is said to have a Magic score in the high double-digits; I figure that that's probably a rough lower bound on any Great Dragon. That doesn't give a Sorcery skill, of course. IIRC DotSW has some stats, but I remember them as alarmingly low. Really, Twist Fate is all you need for Great Dragons for most purposes, mechanically speaking.

~J

[Lindt]

Im not entirely sure stealth was covered in respect to drones. When it came up I allowed it in the same vein as other vehicle stealth from R3R.
And yes, great dragons win.

[Hrafn]

Thanks guys.

Anybody else want to weigh in on the Great Dragon or Matrix thing?

Also, Kagetenshi, can you elaborate on the tally issue and why it makes cybercombat not worthwhile? So far the only cybercombat we've had has been against IC, and it seems fine (suppress or let it hit the tally immediately).

[3278]

2. Riggers. If a rigger is driving a drone or vehicle, do they get to use control pool to dodge gunfire and use gunnery? Or do they only get to use control pool on driving tests?

Basically just Driving Tests [SR3, p134], the Open Test to determine your Driver Points in vehicle combat [SR3, p140] [if you use this combat system for vehicle combat] and Damage Resistance Tests and Crash Tests [SR3, p147], and remember the rigger only gets the Control Pool if they're rigged in.

We are confused over whether drones can dodge, and if so, if you use combat pool or control pool.

A drone on its own can't dodge - no Control Pool - but a controlling rigger - again, jumped-in - can dodge, using Control Pool [SR3, p149].

2a. Can riggers controlling drones use stealth at all?

No, but isn't that dumb? You can make a hiding test in vehicle combat [SR3, p144], but that's not really the same, and requires the use of the vehicle combat rules, which not everyone [read: me] loves. The difficulty is that there are a couple of different kinds of stealth as it pertains to vehicles: there's minimizing your apparent Signature, and there's making it so people can't see or hear you. ECCM [and the use of the "tight terrain" modifier] is intended to do the former, and we created the Vehicle Stealth skill to cover the latter, but more could be done here.

So my question is, what *is* a great dragon's sorcery skill? Unarmed combat?

As far as they come, Rhonabwy is basically a big puss in the Great Dragon world; compared to, say, Lofwyr or Ghostwalker, both of whom are 30,000+ years old, he's a bitty baby, so he makes a nice low end: his Magic is 25 [plus a Rating 7 Power Focus], his Sorcery is 25, and he knows all Shadowrun spells [and then some, presumably, being a Dragon] at Force 5-15, and all Combat, Detection, and Manipulation Spells at 16-20. And has a Professional Rating (Magical) of 12, and a Professional Rating (Combat) of 7 [PR, p63]. No word on his Unarmed Combat, but he could always default [at a +4 target number, SR3 p85] to his Strength of 45. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

They gave stats to Lofwyr in SR4, but that's unimportant.

[nezumi]

Hi, new GM here. Our group has started playing SR3 since someone found all the books they had, and we decided to actually use them.

Welcome!! I love SR3, so do enjoy!

1. I've been reading the rules, and have read discussions about SR3 on other forums, and I get the impression that the decking rules are broken or something? I don't understand, because after learning the rules, everything seems to work fine so long as my Decker and I are familiar with the system operations (which we decided to use a cheat sheet to keep track of).

Matrix rules are tough because, firstly, most people run them separately and it's a whole second game only the decker is invited to, and secondly, because that section of the book is just so poorly organized. If you know the rules, you're running it and having fun, you're doing it right.

2. Riggers. If a rigger is driving a drone or vehicle, do they get to use control pool to dodge gunfire and use gunnery?

Yes.

We are confused over whether drones can dodge, and if so, if you use combat pool or control pool.

Not on their own. They use the rigger's control pool, when the rigger is controlling them. Unfortunately, this has the effect that an undriven vehicle is exceptionally easy to defeat, while a driven one is far, far more difficult.

2a. Can riggers controlling drones use stealth at all?

The rules are silent (I rule yes, with a penalty based on its signature).

I've read a lot about dragons and great dragons (we have dragons of the sixth world), and while it says dragons and great dragons have very high magic attributes and sorcery skills, it doesn't really give any hard stats. So my question is, what *is* a great dragon's sorcery skill? Unarmed combat?

High, in the region of 10-14 for sorcery, likely a little lower for unarmed.

[3278]

If a rigger is driving a drone or vehicle, do they get to use control pool to dodge gunfire and use gunnery?

Yes.

You can use Control Pool dice to augment Gunnery tests, as well?

High, in the region of 10-14 for sorcery, likely a little lower for unarmed.

That's are interesting figures. Where do you see those?

[nezumi]

You can use Control Pool dice to augment Gunnery tests, as well?

Control Pool can be used for ALL vehicle actions while jacked in, so gunnery, dodging, maneuvers, etc. If memory serves, the rules don't prohibit using combat pool either, so riggers can be crazy overpowered (which isn't THAT bad, since generally riggers can only be beaten by other riggers anyway). We always houseruled against that though, for obvious reasons.

That's are interesting figures. Where do you see those?

I honestly can't remember. It may have been extrapolated. There was a 2nd edition mission (Dragon Hunt?) which statted out an adult dragon. Then I compared to the Earthdawn dragon references and sort of eyeballed it.

[3278]

Control Pool can be used for ALL vehicle actions while jacked in, so gunnery, dodging, maneuvers, etc.

Do you have a page reference for that? As far as I know [SR3, p152] only Combat Pool dice may be used to augment a Sensor-Enhanced Gunnery test. In the description of the Control Pool [SR4, p44], only the Maneuver Test [SR3, p140] and Damage Resistance Test [SR3, p147] are mentioned, although obviously you can also use it for Driving Tests [SR3, p134]; there's no mention of Gunnery there. If you don't happen to have the page handy, do you have any suggestions where else I might look?

I honestly can't remember. It may have been extrapolated. There was a 2nd edition mission (Dragon Hunt?) which statted out an adult dragon. Then I compared to the Earthdawn dragon references and sort of eyeballed it.

Ah, that's cool. I'd go with the published stats for Rhonabwy over those figures, but I like my ancient beings nice and tough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[LordHaHa]

Rigger 3:
"As described on p. 44, SR3, Control Pool dice may be added to any test that deals strictly with the control of a rigged vehicle. They may be used on Maneuver Tests and Dodge or Damage Resistance Tests to avold damage from attacks against a character's vehicle, but they may not be used for tests made when firing vehicle weapons or using vehicle sensors. Control Pool dice may not be used for operating sensors or electronic warfare. nor by a rigger operating a remote control network from the captain's chair mode."

LordHaHa

[Moirdryd]

Lord Haha has the right of it *nods*

I;d forgotten that I play with the same basic Houserule as nezumi there where Combat pool doesn't come into it at all and Control pool is used for everything whilst Rigging (except of course the sensors and stuff) Done it that way for that long now forgotten it wasn't RAW *chuckles*

[Hrafn]

What book has the published stats for Rhonabwy?

[3278]

What book has the published stats for Rhonabwy?

Prime Runners, such as it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) If you missed it, my first post contained page references to everything I mentioned. [Sometimes I think there ought to be a rule requiring them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ]

[nezumi]

You're right, sorry. We house ruled it to link gunnery to control pool. Otherwise he just has an unlordly amount of pool dice. No one else gets to add a full pool to shooting, then another full pool to dodging/damage resistance. Even mages have to cut their spell pool between casting, resisting drain, and spell defense.

[3278]

No sweat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If I could remember all the book rules off the top of my head, we wouldn't need to keep all these damned books around. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Our house rules are about all I can ever remember, so I have to look up the "official" version.

[Rajaat99]

1. I've been reading the rules, and have read discussions about SR3 on other forums, and I get the impression that the decking rules are broken or something? I don't understand, because after learning the rules, everything seems to work fine so long as my Decker and I are familiar with the system operations (which we decided to use a cheat sheet to keep track of).

Where can I get a copy of this cheat sheet?

[Moirdryd]

The one in the back of Matrix, with a few notes on cue cards for IC types and system feedback works well for me. I just make sure that the decker has a copy of it as well (not the IC cards) and all is well. Sometime it's handy to have a printed copy of the Operations section of the BBB and/or matrix for the decker to use if they don't have a copy of the book, but that gets less frequent with time (my group is new to Shadowrun and two sessions in the decker is usually telling me what ops he's doing for what result).

[Bigity]

Thanks guys.

Anybody else want to weigh in on the Great Dragon or Matrix thing?

Also, Kagetenshi, can you elaborate on the tally issue and why it makes cybercombat not worthwhile? So far the only cybercombat we've had has been against IC, and it seems fine (suppress or let it hit the tally immediately).

Or better yet, you code your Attack programs with the option that doesn't raise the tally when you crash IC with it.

[Kagetenshi]

Also, Kagetenshi, can you elaborate on the tally issue and why it makes cybercombat not worthwhile? So far the only cybercombat we've had has been against IC, and it seems fine (suppress or let it hit the tally immediately).

Ten years and ten months is an appropriate interval to wait for an answer, right?

The issue is as follows: IC is triggered by the system making successful Security Tests against the Decker. If tally rises enough to trigger IC, that usually means that the Decker’s Detection Factor isn’t high enough to reliably avoid system successes. That means anything the Decker hopes to accomplish needs to get done quickly. Cybercombat takes time, during which the system is rolling more detection tests and accumulating more Tally and getting closer to triggering more IC. Then when you beat the IC, you either take a chunk of additional Tally (often much of the gap to the next IC trigger) or you tie up Hacking Pool reducing further the resources you need to finish what you came for and possibly reducing your Detection Factor.

Admittedly there are probably ways to design matrix runs and objectives such that an unstealthy blitz-in-blitz-out approach can work (among other things, System Shutdown probably has or should have side effects that would probably be useful for ’Runners), but most of the time, extraordinarily rotten luck on some early detection tests aside, triggering IC is a sign it’s time to pull the plug.

~J

[Lionesque]

Ten years and ten months is an appropriate interval to wait for an answer, right?

What's a little necromancy between friends?

[Tiralee]

Kagetenshi had it cold, btw:

Unless you're using the optional "Use Hacking pool to suppress tally" rules (valid, in the book, I think, it has been a decade since I read them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) your decker is going to need to be very very quiet because as soon as the Tally goes from passive to active, all the TN's are +2 and all the Ice is going ot be sniffing for you.
And it's likely the place you're looking to get into is now on passive or active alert, with reinforcements organized.

This is where it's good to do some homework with Deckers - get the greasy little bugger (Deckers are always greasy little buggers - I don't seem them maxing out Charisma when INT needs work!) to survey and possibly make some inroads on the site security well before the physical intrusion.
If everything's' offline, you're out of luck, but unless you're heading to a Zero-zero site (or anything by the Azzies) you're going to be able to backdoor something, and that can then be leveraged later. (Unless, of course, you trigger a shutdown and reboot, or leave a datatrail - always be cleaning your logs and then a gracefull logoff!)

Regarding Dragons - yeah, don't bother. They're a pain in the ass, hardened armor (So that's expensive Anti-vehicular rounds or lasers) and have some annoying "Lol, I twist fate, lol" abilities.
But: Reduce ANY intelligent creature's mental Stats and their day is going to be HARD. (Avoid a Dracoform's Willpower, that's usually 2 digits.)

Go hunt some toxic Shaman for the bounty instead:)

-
Tir