Broken rules for Direct Combat Spells Options

[Stormdrake]

I am about ready to do away with direct combat spells in my game. The fact that a mage can make one attack roll against a targets will (plus any counter spelling) and cause damage without any secondary roll to resist damage is just so broken. When every other form of combat in the game requires an attack roll and (if it beats the defenders attempts to dodge) a damage resistance roll, the rules for direct combat spells seems very out of place. Having said that, has any one done this? If so what did it do to thegame?
Thanks

[Udoshi]

The biggest thing you can do for direct spells is give the targets a full defense test, and then a soak test. Maybe not get RID of direct combat spells, but give them AP half instead of ignoring armor completely, or perhaps ap = 1/2 force.(so elemental combat spells are still worth it)

I agree, the whole 'dodge and soak is part of the same roll' is kind of broken, expecially when the mage rolls 2-3 dice pools vs a defender's of 1.

There are some optional rules that increase the drain for direct combat spells, but that's not really the issue - the brokenness of the base rules is.


I would also really consider houseruling Overcasting to, i think, tymeaus's rules: If you overcast, it still does stun damage, but the force/2 part of force calculations is removed. So an overcasted stunbolt (force/2-1) becomes force-1 drain.
This makes mages think twice about popping off force 12 spells willy nilly, and also prevents them from deliberately casting physical drain spells so they don't drop unconscious from drain.

[Paul]

I don't see it as broken, although I agree it is a step away from how they do everything else. I'll follow this thread, and I hope you post your results because frankly if someone presents a valid, well reasoned line of thought that is better than what i have I'll use it!

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I changed the drain for direct combat spells by +3, for indirect combat spells by -1 and for elemental effects by -1 and got rid of the stun modifier. Elemental damage type (P/S) is now determined by the elemental effect, eg. lightning spells now only make "S" damage.

Also, i would like to introduce "indirect mana spells", simple balls of mana which can only affect living things. They would be defended against with reaction, and soak would be willpower+counterspelling

[Jizmack]

The specific concern is defending against direct spells. Thus, instead of modifying the spell or its drain, it would be best to modify the spell defense instead.
I would recommend resisting direct spells using 2x Willpower (+ counterspelling), which should better balance out the opposed dice pools. It’s simple and changes nothing on the mage’s character sheet.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

If you just resist with 2*WIL instead of WIL, direct spells are a bit weaker than before but nonetheless vastly superior than indirect combat spells

[Jizmack]

Indirect spells have their uses... like taking out a drone... right tool for the right job (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Yeah, F6 Wreck Vehicle killes drones and has 3 drain, if you have enough dice to beat the threshhold.

[ShadowWalker]

Try comparing indirect combat spells to firearms.
Indirect have one drawback that firearms don't.
They have drain and firearms don't.
If you change direct combat spells to work similarly to indirect ones then you end up with a mage that would be better off using a firearm in a fight.
Right now the balance between combat spells and firearms is broken in favour of magic.
Almost all games that have magic have this problem, and generally the more experience the mage gets the greater the imbalance becomes.
Unfortunately for Shadowrun the imbalance starts right at character creation.
If you change direct combat spells so that they get Intuition in place of Reaction for the Dodge aspect and then Willpower to resist damage I think that's better,
but I also think that the drain taken from direct damage spells should increased as well.
For game balance something that's harder to resist should have a higher drain than something that's easier to resist.
When you compare direct and indirect this is not the case. I would give indirect a +3 with the above dice rolls.

Both Manabolt and Clout are F/2.
Manabolt casting is Spellcasting + Magic, resisting currently is Willpower + Counterspelling
Clout casting is Spellcasting + Magic, resisting currently is Reaction + Counterspelling, then Body + half impact
These two spells shouldn't have the same drain. Manabolt is way more powerful.
Changing Manabolt so that it uses Intuition + Counterspelling and then Willpower with zero armor at a +3 drain seems more inline with things for me.
I would add a +3 to all direct combat spells drain and give people the above rolls.

[Glyph]

If you insist on "fixing" direct combat spells, I would recommend one roll of Willpower (or Body) to resist the spell, then another roll of Willpower (or Body) to soak the damage, rather than one roll of double Willpower, which will too often make the spell completely ineffective. But let targets have the equivalent of full defense - they can get double Willpower (or Body) on the initial resistance test, but it costs them an action as they concentrate on resisting the spell. That would make direct combat spells a lot more similar to normal ranged combat, mechanics-wise.

If you do that, though, then you should also remove the limiters on direct combat spells. Don't cap hits any more, make counterspelling cost an action to use rather than being free extra dice for everyone, and make things like background count much rarer.

[Ryu]

Without direct combat spells you need to do something for indirect combat spells. There needs to be something in the mages arsenal that compares well to using a firearm even with drain considered.

[SaintHax]

Try comparing indirect combat spells to firearms.
Indirect have one drawback that firearms don't.
They have drain and firearms don't.

They actually have another-- their damage doesn't decrease, you negate. If I shoot you with a gun, and you get more soak hits than I got to hit you-- you then start to stage down my damage. If the same rolls happen with a spell, you negate my spell. So if I cast a F12 manabolt, you don't have to stage it down.

Both Manabolt and Clout are F/2.
Manabolt casting is Spellcasting + Magic, resisting currently is Willpower + Counterspelling
Clout casting is Spellcasting + Magic, resisting currently is Reaction + Counterspelling, then Body + half impact
These two spells shouldn't have the same drain. Manabolt is way more powerful.
Changing Manabolt so that it uses Intuition + Counterspelling and then Willpower with zero armor at a +3 drain seems more inline with things for me.
I would add a +3 to all direct combat spells drain and give people the above rolls.

Manabolt can only effect the living, you can actually push buttons with Clout or break a vase. Not much of an advantage, but it's something. Indirect spells are tame compared to how bad conjuring is. If you disagree, then figure out how easy it is to some a F8 spirit of man-- who then can also cast that indirect combat spell you know with 16d pool, and a ridiculous melee defense pool.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

They actually have another-- their damage doesn't decrease, you negate. If I shoot you with a gun, and you get more soak hits than I got to hit you-- you then start to stage down my damage. If the same rolls happen with a spell, you negate my spell. So if I cast a F12 manabolt, you don't have to stage it down.

How is that a drawback? If i dodge your shot, then i negate your firearms damage ... if i don't dodge it, then i have the chance to reduce the damage.

Also, spells have a huge advantage over firearms - you never run out of ammo, they are subtle (direct spells only), and than there is the "cyberware scanner" that detects every weapon with 1 hit.

[Ascalaphus]

How is that a drawback? If i dodge your shot, then i negate your firearms damage ... if i don't dodge it, then i have the chance to reduce the damage.

Also, spells have a huge advantage over firearms - you never run out of ammo, they are subtle (direct spells only), and than there is the "cyberware scanner" that detects every weapon with 1 hit.

Normal ammo is so cheap that running out doesn't really matter. Even stuff like SnS and Ex-Ex is cheap compared to the money available during CharGen.

Also, there are weapons that don't show up to the cyberware scanner. But the amount of cyberware scanners is definitely something you should talk about with the GM.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Buying ammo is not the problem, bringing tons of ammo with you is the problem. But if your GM lets you sneak in hundreds of bullets without getting noticed (olfactory scanner ^^), then you dont have that problem.

There are some weapons that don't show on a MAD-scanner, but i know of none that circumvents a cyberware scanner while being functional (WW Infiltrator, SA Puzzler).

[Psikerlord]

I don't think you need to worry too much. A skilled shooter with an SMG is more deadly than a mage with stunbolt. Sure, mages have plenty of awesome tricks, but so do cyberguys, riggers, hackers... the list goes on. A good defence against spellcasters is cover and visibility (including carrying around some smoke grenades - yes they also reduce a shooters dice pool, but the shooter can afford to lose attack dice more than a mage - his pool will be bigger to begin with) ... and of course friendly counterspelling (inc a borrowed spirit with counterspelling) works wonders.

[Aaron]

Here's another direct combat spell fix idea: remove the "+ net hits" part of the "Force + net hits" equation for damage.

[Thanee]

Don't forget, that - at least technically - you get more dice to resist a direct combat spell than you get to dodge a bullet.

Willpower + Counterspelling (Attribute + Skill) vs. just Reaction (Attribute)

Granted, you can use full defense (but that costs you an action) and for combat-oriented characters Reaction is likely much higher than Willpower, too.

And, of course, you need a mage with Counterspelling in the first place, to get those dice.

But it's still something to keep in mind.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Oh, and for drones there is Power Bolt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Don't forget, that - at least technically - you get more dice to resist a direct combat spell than you get to dodge a bullet.

Willpower + Counterspelling (Attribute + Skill) vs. just Reaction (Attribute)

Granted, you can use full defense (but that costs you an action) and for combat-oriented characters Reaction is likely much higher than Willpower, too.

Willpower + Counterspelling (Attribute + Skill) vs. just Reaction (Attribute) + Body + Armor

[Mäx]

they are subtle (direct spells only)

Only if you keep the force slow enought, noticing spell casting has a treshold of 6-Force so at force 6 and higher there's no need for a test at all, everyone just notices it.

Also, there are weapons that don't show up to the cyberware scanner.

No there are not.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

well, they only notice that you cast magic when they look at you.

Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster.

So if a eagle shapeshifter mage casts a stunball from 1km height at you, (nearly) nobody will notice it. If i fire an assault cannon, everyone in 3km+ radius will hear it.

[Ascalaphus]

Ah, yes, a cyberware scanner notices non-biological items and identifies them based on "shape, location and composition", if it's in the scanner's database. That means that you could disguise a weapon, by disguising its shape and composition as something innocuous. For example, the puzzler guns, which break apart into pieces that look like jewelry.

[Yerameyahu]

Presumably composition refers to the actual materials, though? 'My, what durable jewelry you're carrying…' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I dunno, it's all handwavium anyway. I still agree that a solution is to make these magic scanners more realistically bulky and expensive, and short-range; metal detectors are easy, these really shouldn't be.

Those particular guns are pretty crappy, though, when you go back to comparing combat effectiveness against the direct spells. It's no longer a modded Ares Alpha we're talking about.

[Ascalaphus]

True. I suppose that in the process of making the magic rules "simple and easy", they also sterilized. While it makes sense flavorwise for a shaman or hermetic to be carrying all kinds of ritual implements and fetishes (which a cyberscanner would detect!), there's no more mechanical need for that anymore.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Yeah, the cyberscanner would detect the fetish, but i would not identify it as a fetish.