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> Securing a PAN, A question for someone knowledgeable
mister__joshua
post Jan 12 2012, 04:26 PM
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I've been reading a lot of Unwired recently in an attempt to better understand all things Matrix. I've been reading about slaving and I had an idea, but I'm not sure how it plays out.

If I have Commlink 1 plugged into a datajack, and everything I want connected to it either wired in or skinlinked then that'd be unhackable, correct? (Unless someone was touching me)

If I then have a second commlink slaved to the first, and connected to it by cable, but wireless and matrix connected, how would it be hacked? You have to hack the master to reach the slave, but the master is unreachable unless you can hack back to it through the second device? I aren't sure. Thats why I'm asking. It's more of a thought that came to me rather than something likely to come up in a game, but I was musing over it and thought I'd ask. Cheers for any insights
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 12 2012, 05:34 PM
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The slave just forwards any connection attempt to the master, therefore you could just hack the master over the wireless connection of the slave
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 12 2012, 05:46 PM
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NiL nailed it: if you're online, you're online.

There are some good old threads about 'standard procedures' and slaving that address this in nauseating detail. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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squee_nabob
post Jan 12 2012, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE (mister__joshua @ Jan 12 2012, 11:26 AM) *
If I have Commlink 1 plugged into a datajack, and everything I want connected to it either wired in or skinlinked then that'd be unhackable, correct? (Unless someone was touching me)


Or unless a sprite already has an account on the node, or a repeater drone lands on you, or someone has a pathway through the matrix and an open subscription. Basically you’ve denied Mutual Signal Range (MSR), so all regular ways to hack someone without MSR still work.

QUOTE (mister__joshua @ Jan 12 2012, 11:26 AM) *
If I then have a second commlink slaved to the first, and connected to it by cable, but wireless and matrix connected, how would it be hacked?


By attempting to hack the second comlink, you end up hacking the first.

QUOTE
the slaved node does not accept any Matrix connections from any other node but the master and instantly forwards any connection attempts to the master.


So to answer in a complete sentence, attempting to hack the second node forwards the connection attempt to the first node, which can be hacked. At least that is my interpretation of Unwired 55.
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Udoshi
post Jan 12 2012, 07:31 PM
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Also the FAQ

Q:Can you subscribe to a slaved node or device?
A:A slaved node will not accept any subscriptions except from its master node; any attempt to use the Log On action to access the slave node will cause the user to Log On to the master node (provided they have a valid account and/or passcode). A hacker can attempt to subscribe directly to the slaved node if they have a physical connection (Slaving, p.55, Unwired).

Q:If a group of devices were daisy-chained together, one slaved to the next, could you hack the last device directly, or would you need to hack them all in successive order?
A: You can hack the last device directly (previous question), but at no point would you have to hack each device sequentially. The master node gives access to all slaved nodes and devices in that network. Some systems are set up so that you must hack a particular node before you can access a different node, these are called gateways.

Daisy chaining doesn't really work so well due to the wonders of mesh routing.
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Lantzer
post Jan 12 2012, 07:47 PM
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This doesn't quite answer your question, but if you are trying to secure your PAN, your best bet is still to use skinlink, Up your firewall, and use a stealth program, encryption, and data bombs.

A stealth program doesn't stop a hack attempt, but severely slows it, as a prospective intruder has to detect each facet of your security before he can attempt to deal with it. A comlink without a stealth program is wide open for examination.
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Warlordtheft
post Jan 12 2012, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (mister__joshua @ Jan 12 2012, 11:26 AM) *
I've been reading a lot of Unwired recently in an attempt to better understand all things Matrix. I've been reading about slaving and I had an idea, but I'm not sure how it plays out.

If I have Commlink 1 plugged into a datajack, and everything I want connected to it either wired in or skinlinked then that'd be unhackable, correct? (Unless someone was touching me)

If I then have a second commlink slaved to the first, and connected to it by cable, but wireless and matrix connected, how would it be hacked? You have to hack the master to reach the slave, but the master is unreachable unless you can hack back to it through the second device? I aren't sure. Thats why I'm asking. It's more of a thought that came to me rather than something likely to come up in a game, but I was musing over it and thought I'd ask. Cheers for any insights


However the way to play it is as follows--SOP as far as I see it):
1. Your Main commlink node is hidden and contains all those illegal programs that you're not supposed to have.
2. It has a signal of 0 (Basically 3 meters) and connects to your disposable commlink where you have a higher signal.
3. The disposable commlink is just that and depending on area of town (good or bad) you adjust it as public or hidden. Broadcasting your fake sin as needed.
4. Any cyber is slaved to your main commlink and the signal kept to a 0 or skinlinked.
5. Yes, hacking attempts can be made against your hidden node at anypoint, butthey would need to first spot it after realizing your broadcastin link is not your true link.

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Udoshi
post Jan 14 2012, 12:16 AM
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Also, FAQ

How can a character protect his cyberware from hacking?

1) Turn off or remove any wireless links (p. 31, Augmentation).
2) Use a direct physical connection rather than wireless (externally-accessible implants only).
3) Keep the Signal rating low so a hacker would have to be within close range.
4) Use a good Firewall program.
5) Use a good Encryption program.
6) Stay in hidden mode.
7) Slave the implant to your secure commlink (Slaving, p. 55, Unwired).
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Install Data Bomb, ECCM, or IC programs
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3278
post Jan 14 2012, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (mister__joshua @ Jan 12 2012, 04:26 PM) *
If I then have a second commlink slaved to the first, and connected to it by cable, but wireless and matrix connected, how would it be hacked?

To say the same thing everyone else is, but in a different way, it would be hacked through that cable that connects them.

QUOTE (Lantzer @ Jan 12 2012, 07:47 PM) *
This doesn't quite answer your question, but if you are trying to secure your PAN, your best bet is still to use skinlink, Up your firewall, and use a stealth program, encryption, and data bombs.

Or turn all that stuff off, of course. There's really no reason at all for your whole PAN to be online all the time. Turn on the devices you need when you need those devices, and after ascertaining whether or not it's safe to do that. If wireless security in real life sucked as much as it does in Shadowrun, wouldn't you just turn off your cell phone when you didn't need it, or else never have anything on it you didn't want the entire world to see?
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Stahlseele
post Jan 14 2012, 01:28 PM
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Burnout all wireless on all cyber.
Have an internal comlink.
Have a Datajack.
Connect external Comlink with wifi to Datajack via cable only if really needed.
Else, disconnect cable. You are now safe and secure and have a disposable comlink broadcasting your fake SIN and doing spam defence and the such.

You want stable?
You want safe?
You want secure?
You use a cable or stop complaining <.<
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3278
post Jan 14 2012, 01:35 PM
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That's [roughly] what all of my [augmented] characters do, even the ones who aren't tech-savvy, because you presume somewhere along the line, someone would have said to them, "Bro, there's only one way to do this..."
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 14 2012, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 14 2012, 07:17 AM) *
There's really no reason at all for your whole PAN to be online all the time.

There are scads of reasons for your PAN to be online all the time. It's just that you *could* bite the bullet and turn it all off, if you really needed to.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 14 2012, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 14 2012, 02:35 PM) *
That's [roughly] what all of my [augmented] characters do, even the ones who aren't tech-savvy, because you presume somewhere along the line, someone would have said to them, "Bro, there's only one way to do this..."

Yeah, it's the only way to be sure.
Also, the Datajack itself gets a Firewall.
And the Comlink gets a firewall and at least one agent doing a system wide sweep every minute or so.
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 14 2012, 01:50 PM
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And the smartgun gets a Cyber Safety chip installed (Augmentation, p. 40).
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Stahlseele
post Jan 14 2012, 01:55 PM
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Back before all this wifi nonsense, we had subdermal Induction Datajacks and Induction Pads for our Smartlinked Weapons <.<
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 14 2012, 02:01 PM
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The cyber safety chip is exactly this - and it costs 0 essence too.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 14 2012, 02:09 PM
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No, the Cyber-Safety-Chip is something different.
In SR3 it worked by using the Induction Pad of the Smartlink or the Induction Datajack in your Hand.
In SR4, Smartlink is Eye-Ware, so no contact anywhere, if it's not skinlinked somehow.
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 14 2012, 04:46 PM
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Well, the safety chip only functions with an implanted smartlink - or with a cable from a datajack to your goggles
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3278
post Jan 14 2012, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 14 2012, 01:46 PM) *
There are scads of reasons for your PAN to be online all the time.

What would some of those be, out of curiosity?
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 14 2012, 07:48 PM
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Communications, AR, games, convenience, searches, TacNets, remote controls, … basically anything. Certainly not "really no reason at all". Together with your 'what do mundanes have to fear from mages' question, I'm starting to doubt your imagination! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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3278
post Jan 15 2012, 03:19 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 14 2012, 07:48 PM) *
Communications, AR, games, convenience, searches, TacNets, remote controls, … basically anything.

Could you please explain how any of those require your PAN to be online all the time? [Emphasis mine.]

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 14 2012, 07:48 PM) *
Certainly not "really no reason at all". Together with your 'what do mundanes have to fear from mages' question, I'm starting to doubt your imagination! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You should probably get used to the idea that sometimes I ask questions to spark conversation, or to learn someone else's ideas, not because I don't already have an answer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[edit: Also, I definitely didn't ask, "What do mundanes have to fear from mages?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) If what I did ask was unclear, please feel free to ask me to clarify!]
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 15 2012, 03:27 AM
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Because you'd be using those all the time. (Lack of emphasis mine.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Ooh, I forgot sensor feeds!

You didn't ask a question. You made a (ridiculous) categorical statement. It's clear that, far from "really no reason at all", there are a number of reasons. That's not at all to say that a shadowrunner couldn't turn it off, especially in certain circumstance, but that's not what you said. If that's just you sparking conversation… ugh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(I'm pretty happy with my paraphrase of your actual question about mundanes. I didn't use quotation marks, so it's clear that's what I was doing.)
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3278
post Jan 15 2012, 03:57 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 15 2012, 03:27 AM) *
Because you'd be using those all the time.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how you'd be searching all the time. Could you please perhaps explain? You've said several times, "There are a number of reasons," and "You'd be using those all the time," and so on, but you haven't explained, or given any reasons. Saying a thing is so does not explain how or why it's so. Why do I need my entire PAN online all the time?

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 15 2012, 03:27 AM) *
You didn't ask a question.

Yes, I did: "What would some of those be, out of curiosity?" was the question I asked. I asked it to learn your beliefs on the subject: if you're not interested in sharing those beliefs, please, feel free to say so.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 15 2012, 03:27 AM) *
(I'm pretty happy with my paraphrase of your actual question about mundanes. I didn't use quotation marks, so it's clear that's what I was doing.)

You used single quotes instead of double quotes, which isn't a convention I'm familiar with for paraphrasing; my apologies. Is this a common convention?

Your paraphrasing, however, is completely and wildly incorrect, incomplete, and ridiculous. If you'd like to know why, please ask. If you don't, please stop pretending it's accurate, when the person who said it politely mentioned it wasn't.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 15 2012, 04:22 AM
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I didn't just say searching. I gave a whole (non-exhaustive) list of examples.

You need it on because you're using it; you need your whole PAN because it's typically a single unit, without annoying complications; you need it all the time because many of the things you're using, and especially in aggregate, are used all the time. I'm not being obscure, here. As I said, there are special circumstances when these aren't true, but that's hugely different from "really no reason at all".

I understand it to be a common convention, yes. *shrug* Maybe you're misreading my paraphrase. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I'm happy to forget it, it was the most minor of points to begin with. Serves me right for making a joke.
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3278
post Jan 15 2012, 05:17 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 15 2012, 04:22 AM) *
I didn't just say searching. I gave a whole (non-exhaustive) list of examples.

Indeed you did. But I wasn't simply asking for searching, I was using it as an example of a thing you hadn't provided any reasons for needing to have your PAN online all the time for; it wasn't intended to be exhaustive, either, only one example among many.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 15 2012, 04:22 AM) *
You need it on because you're using it; you need your whole PAN because it's typically a single unit, without annoying complications; you need it all the time because many of the things you're using, and especially in aggregate, are used all the time.

Why would you be using your PAN all the time, though? I use my smartphone a fair amount, but always? Could you please give reasons you'd need your entire PAN online all the time?

I don't mean, 'because you're doing stuff with it,' I mean reasons. I don't wear a seatbelt, 'because, in aggregate, there are situations in which it might be useful,' I wear it because, for example, another vehicle might strike me, and I could be thrown violently forward, a situation in which the safety belt would prevent me from colliding with the steering column and being injured, something I like to avoid. You need it on all the time because the situations in which someone else might hit you [for example] are unpredictable, so you can't just pop the thing on, use it, and pop it off. There's a reason, more specific than, "because you're using it," for wearing a seat belt.

For another example, a cell phone could be turned off until it's necessary, but if it's intended for two-way unscheduled communications, this would be impractical, since someone couldn't dial in to you. There's a reason that it's necessary for a phone to be turned on, if that's its intended use. A similar argument would obviously be made for a commlink, if you wanted to be able to use it for two-way communications.

Are there similar, equivalent reasons a shadowrunner might have for leaving their PAN online all the time?

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 15 2012, 04:22 AM) *
...you need your whole PAN because it's typically a single unit...

If you consider the PAN to be "a single unit," we mean something very different by the term. What is it you mean?

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 15 2012, 04:22 AM) *
Serves me right for making a joke.

To be perfectly honest, given your attitude, I didn't interpret it as a joke: I thought you were being a dick, and playing it off like you were making a joke. Usually, when someone misrepresents something you said and then throws up their hands and says, "I was paraphrasing! I was joking!" it's because they're trying to be a dick without getting called on it, trying to ride the ride without having to pay for the ticket: "Your mother's a whore," gets you a punch in the face, but add, "Just kidding!" and everything's kosher. But if you weren't being offhandedly dickish, then gee, well, I just feel horrible for misrepresenting you.
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