Is it possible to get five IPs? Options

[Neko Asakami]

I could swear that somewhere I read on the boards that it's possible to get five IPs if you really really push it, but when I tried searching on the boards, I couldn't find any useful info. Help please?

[Yerameyahu]

Some people think that 5IP rigging counts, which is possible by using the Simsense Accelerator (right, not the Booster?). This is crap, of course, but what can you expect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) You certainly can get 5 Matrix IPs.

[Udoshi]

Its possible to get 5 matrix IPs yes. A combination of Simsense Booster(augmentation) and Simsense Accelerator(unwired), in Hotsim, will get you 5 passes. (one of those two pieces of gear has a clause that is a specific exception to the 4-pass rule, i forget which)
Technomancers with Overclocking/Advanced Overclocking as echoes can do the same.

Riggers CAN use those passes in meatspace, but they have to use an action to control the vehicle or take a penalty, so its effectively 4.
Cyborgs are specifically exempt from having to spend an action to control themselves each turn, and are the only archetype able to use 5 passes in the real world.

At higher submersion levels, a technomancer with Multiprocessing/Mesh reality/Macro(having the last two lets you use macro for cybercombat, which can give you TWO complex actions per pass), and a bunch of passes can theoretically get even more actions than a cyborg, but is going to be taking each of them at a big penalty. Big enough that its probably not worth it.
Theoretically, because even if you have those echoes, you still only have 1 physical and 3 matrix passes, and you probably want to be at 4/4 or 4/5 to make use full of it. Your meatspace actions are at -4, and your matrix actions are at -2, and if you are threading anything, both those penalties are two worse.

[Neko Asakami]

Ah, perfect. That's what I wanted to know Udoshi! Thank you!

[Udoshi]

You're welcome! Anytime

Out of curiosity, what were you thinking of doing with this information?

[Neko Asakami]

I'm working on building my first player character for SR4 (I ALWAYS am the GM) and I'm trying to min-max an adept. Part of that is trying to get as many IPs as possible. I vaguely remembered the 5 IP thing and was wondering if it was Matrix only or if it could be done in meat as well.

[Udoshi]

I'm working on building my first player character for SR4 (I ALWAYS am the GM) and I'm trying to min-max an adept. Part of that is trying to get as many IPs as possible. I vaguely remembered the 5 IP thing and was wondering if it was Matrix only or if it could be done in meat as well.

If you haven't looked at Way of the Adept yet, I strongly recommend it. There are some fantastic options for an adept with a lot of passes in there.

[Dakka Dakka]

You don't need 5 IPs. What's important is that you have more IP's than your Opponents. If you have more you can go on full defense and still attack afterwards.

Yup, way of the adept is nice: Take way of the warrior and adept geas (from street Magic IIRC) and improved Reflexes III only cost 3 PP. Still plenty of room for other stuff.

If you want to go armed close combat, Two-weapon style, and disarm (both from arsenal) might be a nice idea. You attack with one weapon and are on Full defense at the same time (by RAW this isn't even restricted to avoiding melee attacks). At -4 to your Full Parry you get a free disarm attempt every time as well.

[Neko Asakami]

I've skimmed it, but I'll definitely go back a give it a more in depth look. Right now, I'm more of feeling out the options than anything, I haven't decided if I'm going to go with an Invisible Way or Warrior's Way adept yet. I'm sort of joining a game in media res, so I actually have a fair chunk to work with. I've got 400 BP, 15 extra BP that can only be used for contacts, 65 Karma, and since I'm only showing up for a one shot, I don't have to spend for a lifesytle. Out of that Karma, I plan on initiating twice, so I should have plenty of PP to go around.

Though, personal opinions, in a game of this power level, is three IP enough or should I max out all four?

[Yerameyahu]

A game of what power level?

[Neko Asakami]

I dunno if you're being sarcastic or not with that, so I'm going to assume you're not being sarcastic.

Standard 400 BP BP + 65 Karma. Honestly, I don't know how "high level" that is, but IIRC that's equivalent to about 435 BP, total, right?

[Hida Tsuzua]

Riggers CAN use those passes in meatspace, but they have to use an action to control the vehicle or take a penalty, so its effectively 4.
Cyborgs are specifically exempt from having to spend an action to control themselves each turn, and are the only archetype able to use 5 passes in the real world.

It's really not that bad for riggers. You're fine the first turn so you can blaze away just fine all 5 passes. On the second turn, you have a -2 penalty to your actions. That's not good, but it isn't all that bad. If the fight somehow lastd beyond a turn, you'll likely want that extra action anyways. After the second turn (and 10 phases!), you then crash. Crashing combat drones will survive the vast majority of crashes due to their low body scores. You will want to burn a pass on the second turn if you're inside a bus or whatever because that will go boom. But I'm not sure what sort of combat will last that long especially against a 5 pass drone that isn't enemies coming in very fast, regular waves (like 1+ dudes a pass).

As for IPs it really does depend on the group. However in the vast majority of cases, 3 IPs is more than fine. Except on the low end of power (Weapon Specialist level) and niche cases (armored tin man builds or vastly unequal equipment), you can take someone of equal power to yourself out of the fight fairly regularly per pass, two if you're unlucky. This means that after the 3rd pass, you're likely taken out 2-3 people and so has everyone else. That's means the fight is either over or pretty much decided since half or more of the participants are out of the fight.

There are cases with four or more IPs is worth it*. They're generally rare and not worth the opportunity cost you have to pay to get it. The exception to this is the Increase Reflexes spell since it's easy to get 4 IPs with that. I could see some adepts with ways and geases buying Improved Reflexes 3 since the cost is then cheap and they rapidly run out of other things to buy.

*- Generally it's when you're outnumbered, low armor, the enemies are terrible shots with non-BF/FA weapons, and you have more IPs than them. Then you may want to full defense until you get a "free" IP. In my experience, that's a rare case.

Edit-

I dunno if you're being sarcastic or not with that, so I'm going to assume you're not being sarcastic.

Standard 400 BP BP + 65 Karma. Honestly, I don't know how "high level" that is, but IIRC that's equivalent to about 435 BP, total, right?

The problem is that in SR, BP and karma has a small correlation with power level. For example, compare the starting characters from SR4A and Umaro's archetypes. They're both 400BP.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, I see what you meant. I was confused because BP/Karma doesn't have *that* much to do with power level, though certainly they're correlated. I've seen really high-powered 400BP games, and really low-powered 400BP games, so I was wondering what yours was like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Paul]

Standard 400 BP BP + 65 Karma. Honestly, I don't know how "high level" that is, but IIRC that's equivalent to about 435 BP, total, right?

What's the conversion rate between Build Points and Karma? The reason I ask is we started at 400BP, and after eight games now we have a few characters who have about that much karma, (If the player made every session, and used the same character.)

[Yerameyahu]

I think it's usually about 1:2, but obviously the different scales affect that a lot.

[KarmaInferno]

I dunno if you're being sarcastic or not with that, so I'm going to assume you're not being sarcastic.

Standard 400 BP BP + 65 Karma. Honestly, I don't know how "high level" that is, but IIRC that's equivalent to about 435 BP, total, right?

Power level, IPs, etc often have less to do with BP/Karma as they have to do with table preference and playstyle.

I have seen 400 BP groups with 1-2 IP each and dice pools in the 8-12 range.

I have seen 400 BP groups with 4-5 IP each and dice pools in the 16-24 range.

The only real way to gauge a Shadowrun game's power level is to examine the characters involved and talk to the players/GM.



-k

[Neko Asakami]

I am the GM. I've got a player stepping in for a few nights so I can have a chance to sit down and break (learn) the system from the player's side. Overall, my players are in the 10-14 dice range with 2-4 IPs. They're a bit more generalist than I assume most PCs are because we like redundancy within the group. Most have a specialization (10-14 dice) and then something they're not as good at, but close (8-10, with some at 12 dice). I can't really say how quick we mow down mooks (all I know is that it's too quick for my liking), because even the stupidest gangers are smart enough to duck behind a car for cover. In general, faceless corporate security gets taken out in a single shot, but they're so low powered, it's a joke. The only reason I even use them any more is to waste ammo.

I want to put together something that follow the same basic idea: Specializing in either B&E or single blade combat, with the other being my backup skill. Since this is for a one shot, I want to maximize my dice pools and the GM knows I'm going to be bringing something absolutely nuts to the table.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah. Well, as long as you're a ninja, it doesn't matter how nuts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They're not a power 'class'. Given the numbers you describe, and your desire to make a splash, I'd guess that you *do* want 4 IPs. Melee people need all the help they can get, particularly in dodging.

[Critias]

I'd go Way of the Warrior, especially if it was meant to just be a one-shot character with a solid theme in mind. Depending on what you're planning in terms of nuyen allocation, you can potentially save some cash (by avoiding weapon foci) by also picking up Attunement (Sword of Choice). If you're going for just a nasty min/maxed swordman, it's hard to beat combining the Way power discounts (on your stabbity powers and initiative boosts), the Way bonus to Item Attunement, and the Way bonus to Centering (Combat Skills), all to make yourself pretty nasty with a blade. Toss in some Martial Arts from Arsenal for a handful of DV bonuses...there won't be a whole lot you can't one-shot with a decent sword. Flavor with a little Combat Sense (also discounted), keep with your general idea of fat stacks of IPs (easily handled for a Warrior Adept), and you'll have yourself a very nasty piece of work.

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, you'll definitely just die against the first mook with a machine gun, but until then! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Critias]

I mean, you'll definitely just die against the first mook with a machine gun, but until then! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Nah. Improved Ability: Infiltration is cheap, no matter what Way you're on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe, I'm just teasing. He'd hardly be a ninja if they got a chance to shoot in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It'll just be, 'hey, why are there body parts where Bob used to be?'

[Neko Asakami]

Well, Critias, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with your build. That's almost point for point what I've thrown together (after looking more in depth at the adept book), I was just wondering if I should end up forking out for the last IP. ^_^ Thanks guys, good to have your confirmation that I do actually know what I'm doing.

Yerameyahu, when you say it's not a "power class," I assume you're talking about numbers-wise? My experience as a GM says a build like what I'm working on will reward intelligent play and will maximize combat and circumstance bonuses, instead of trying to brute force successes. I assume I'm correct there?

[Hagga]

WAR (I know, I know) features the Rush adept power, 0.5pp. Long story short, one extra IP as a free action, but at the end you take DV equal to the IP you had this turnx2.

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I'm saying Neko, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Don't misunderstand: it is a good thing *not* to play a 'power class'. I only mentioned it because you seemed to imply that you were trying to 'break' the game and shock the temp GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)