Physical Manifestation, How obvious is it? Options

[Paul]

So we all know it takes a complex action for an astral spirit to manifest. (In fact I think any astral form, but anyways...) But how obvious is that process? Do visibility modifiers affect it? Does it make any noise? Is there a smell?

[3278]

Do visibility modifiers affect it?

This is an interesting question. It's a psychic manifestation of an astral form; it should have the same impact on the vision irrespective of lighting conditions, which itself would produce visibility modifiers: you'd be able to see it at night even if the light weren't shining on it, but it wouldn't glow [although I always imagine they do], while during the day it would just be a see-through figure against a bright background. Fog and smoke shouldn't affect it, right? Psychic manifestation?

Does it make any noise? Is there a smell?

I would rule that any intelligent astral being would have the choice of whether to make a sound when manifesting, while others would make a noise or not depending on their nature. I like the flavor of some things actually "popping" into existence, or hearing the rumble of distant thunder as a spirit manifests.

There's no indication that manifesting can produce an odor, only sight and sound. For whatever reason.

[Yerameyahu]

Did you mean Manifest, or Materialize? Sorry, but just checking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Paul]

Pretend that I said whatever makes the most sense.

[3278]

Manifesting is when an astral form makes itself visible and audible - but still not touchable - on the physical plane. Materialization is a spirit power that lets some spirits enter the physical plane [like when you summon an Earth Elemental and then ask him to punch a dude].

Pretty sure you mean Manifesting.

[Paul]

Actually in this case I think both are relevant to ask questions about. I'm specifically thinking of the game where you guys were bushwhacked by elemental spirits.

[Yerameyahu]

See, while I was betting he meant Materializing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ha, I win!

I'm not familiar with any rules about special sensory effects of Materialization. Should be subject to normal perception mods.

[snowRaven]

Materializing would involve a displacement of air - and de-materializing would thus likely involve a pop or 'bang' as air rushes in to fill the void, unless the spirit is slow about it.

Manifesting...not so much. That's more or less a psychic phenomenon.

[Critias]

It's makes a loud BAMF sound, and is accompanied by a cloud of purplish, sulfur-stinking, smoke, of course.

[3278]

Actually in this case I think both are relevant to ask questions about. I'm specifically thinking of the game where you guys were bushwhacked by elemental spirits.

Oh, yeah, if you mean Materializing, then nothing I said applies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Do you mean in the most recent game, when Atem's character came all up on Earth elemental in the tunnel?

For materializing, visibility modifiers would affect it [it's just becoming physical; there's no psychic phenomena here]. I would rule it could make a sound, but wouldn't have to; if it takes 3 seconds for it to happen, it could happen slowly enough to displace air inaudibly.* And the Materialization process wouldn't make a smell, but the spirit that's materialized might have one, although I'm not sure everyone would see it that way.**

*That said, I personally imagine fire elementals crackling, earth elementals grinding, and so on, unless they're really trying to be quiet, but that's nowhere in the rules, only my imagination.

**I do. I like the idea that, although they're astral forms, they become real [but magical] things, and just as they have texture and color, they have scent and taste. But that view of spirits is also not necessarily supported by canon.

[Dakka Dakka]

It's makes a loud BAMF sound, and is accompanied by a cloud of purplish, sulfur-stinking, smoke, of course.

That depends on tradition. Materialization might also be accompanied by rainbows fanfares and the smell of lavender. *ducks and hides*

More seriously though, I'd think it be more like ffffffffffft since the materialization should take half a turn (they get 2 IP in the flesh) or 1.5 seconds. Come to think of it, it might also be 0,75 seconds.

@3278: "No Timmy you are not supposed to lick the salt elemental. And forget about drinking the water elemental just because you have a dry mouth."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh, yeah, if you mean Materializing, then nothing I said applies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Do you mean in the most recent game, when Atem's character came all up on Earth elemental in the tunnel?

For materializing, visibility modifiers would affect it [it's just becoming physical; there's no psychic phenomena here]. I would rule it could make a sound, but wouldn't have to; if it takes 3 seconds for it to happen, it could happen slowly enough to displace air inaudibly.* And the Materialization process wouldn't make a smell, but the spirit that's materialized might have one, although I'm not sure everyone would see it that way.**

*That said, I personally imagine fire elementals crackling, earth elementals grinding, and so on, unless they're really trying to be quiet, but that's nowhere in the rules, only my imagination.

**I do. I like the idea that, although they're astral forms, they become real [but magical] things, and just as they have texture and color, they have scent and taste. But that view of spirits is also not necessarily supported by canon.

At our table, for the character I play, all my spirits (They are all some form of Infernal Being, Black Magician and all that) have an Olfactory component (Sulfurous Fumes), althought it may be subdued/subtle. So, I also tend to agree with you on this one. There is a LOT of fluff that I incorporate into the Traditions that I play. Makes it very interesting, at least to me, and generally the others at the table that pay attention to such things.

[Adarael]

I like Crit's version.

That said, here's what I think:

MANIFESTING makes the astral form as obvious as any roughly humanoid image that glows slightly and is obviously not physically present. So... pretty obvious, but maybe you might not notice at first glance in a crowded area like a nightclub or a Shinjuku streetcorner. I.E. you'd still have to get *some* number of successes on a perception test to notice the fact that something was off.

I think MATERIALIZING, on the other hand, is pretty damned obvious. For one, it takes a complex action, so it's not an instant pop-in: some manner of swirling energies, fading and sparkles, or other measure of magical stuff is involved. What's more, most anything that materializes is immediately obvious as "not normal" - unless it has the Realistic Form power, a Fire Elemental will always be abundantly obvious as something totally not huma - and in most cases this seems to be because spirits manifest as pillars of fire, are surrounded by freezing winds, are THOR, THE GOD OF THUNDER, or just make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up because it's some kind of 10-foot tall wolf.
Ergo, I figure a materializing spirit - unless in a very unusual circumstance - can expect to get everybody's attention in short order. It's possible to be stealthy while doing it - nothing says the earth elemental manifesting in that dumpster over there is automatically detected - but if they were to manifest within view of people, or near enough for their heat/cold/wolfy smell/whatever to be sensed, I suspect shit would get nasty fast.

[UmaroVI]

The only thing with special rules is casting spells: Perception (6-F) to notice. The obvious solution: spirits can try to materialize quietly with Infiltration (which most of them default on). People notice it with Perception. Why complicate things unnecessarily? Also, the usual rules for noticing things apply - if you materialize right in the middle of a crowd, you get noticed automatically. If you're trying to appear behind someone quietly to thwack them, Infiltration.

[Yerameyahu]

Like I said, I'm not aware of any actual rules for this. So it's house rules: up to the GM+group (ahead of time, natch), and it's them basically deciding this small aspect of the power level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If so, yes, I'd allow an Infiltration test.

[Udoshi]

It's makes a loud BAMF sound, and is accompanied by a cloud of purplish, sulfur-stinking, smoke, of course.

Only if you have Mutable Form.

Then you can do whatever the hell you want when you materialize

Edit: Also the presence or lack of Realistic Form matters quite a bit in the appearance discussion

[Dakka Dakka]

Also there is no rule saying spirits displace the air in the location they materialize. The few gas molecules in the volume could simply be incorporated into the spirits materialized solid form. We can only go by what the rulebooks tell us. If they don't mention a pop or other noise, I'd say there is none.

[Paul]

We can only go by what the rulebooks tell us.

Everything else you said I could see as a plausible reason to not have noise, but this sentiment bugs me. And I find that I disagree deeply with it. I would have to say at my own table the rule books serve as the base inspiration; and that while they may serve as a rough outline they should not serve as limitations on how we interpret the game. I'm not sure if that makes sense, nor do I expect you to run your table the same way I do-rather I just felt strongly enough to post my own opinion.

[Yerameyahu]

No, that's silly. You, and everyone, is free to alter or embellish the details of the game, but it's totally obvious that if the rules don't say *anything* about physical and sensory effects of Materialization… then you can't say they do.

You can say, 'I've decided X, at my table'. That's not 'interpreting' the rules, that's *altering* them. Altering is fine, but you have to admit it.

Away from our tables, in this centralized setting, we have to be clear about the *base* rules. You asked an unqualified question in the OP, which automatically means 'per RAW'. Appropriate responses certainly include those of snowRaven and Critias, as long as it's obvious (and it was, but only if you already knew the RAW) that they were suggesting their own house rules/opinions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

What I or anyone else does at their respective tables has nothing to do with the statement. I was referring to the RAW. Unless I'm clearly stating that I am referring to personal house rules or my opinion how the game should be played, I'm only talking about RAW. Multiple possibly contradictory house rules are a very difficult ground to base a discussion on.

[Paul]

I disagree with both of you-not completely, not violently or anything like that. But rather I think it sounds like you're trying to box people in where they don't need to be. Sure the Rules as Written don't mention a noise or smell-that doesn't mean squat. Rules as Written fail to mention a vast swath of subject matter. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist or can't be.

Now I do agree with you Yerameyahu that it is a discussion that happens out of character, away from the table by consensus. And agree with both of you that the Rules as Written are a baseline. But I guess I don't see the Rules as Written as being so unassailable or perfect that they can questioned, or even wrong from time to time.

And for the record, as it stands unless there's a reason (Magical Tradition, circumstances, etc...) there will be no noises or smells, or anything required in my games when a spirit materializes. Sorry if this side tracks the discussion.

[Warlordtheft]

Just because the book doesn't say it is obvious and immediately noticable doesn't mean it is not. Do you need a perception check to notice the person next to you? I think this is prettymuch how Id handle it. Normally--no, unless the spirit was trying to hide from you (Infiltration, and possibly concealment power). Ultimately what it boils down to is RAW is silent, and it is up to the GM to determine what happens in the situation.

[3278]

No, that's silly. You, and everyone, is free to alter or embellish the details of the game, but it's totally obvious that if the rules don't say *anything* about physical and sensory effects of Materialization… then you can't say they do.

Well, yeah, but that's not at all the same as, "We can only go by what the rulebooks tell us." Look, I get the whole, "in this communal arena, the only shared point of reference we have is the rules," but very early in the thread everyone established that the rules don't say anything about these specific things, so all we have to go on, in that absence is house rules and speculation and what's cool and what's plausible. That's more to go on than "what the rulebooks tell us."

By all means, we should all be clear when we're talking about rules, and when we're talking beyond rules, or about house rules. I think people should be more clear. [Can a brother get a page number or a quotation up in here?] But in a case like this, where the rules obviously don't say anything, what's the matter with filling that gap? Nothing. And you agree, and so does Dakka, and that's all Paul was saying.

[Yerameyahu]

Except he was saying it with unnecessary passion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Dakka Dakka wasn't saying 'only follow the rules and nothing else, ever'. And your response, Paul, persists in the confusion: I very clearly did no 'boxing in' whatsoever. No one said *anything* about 'unassailable'. See?

The thing is, I don't see a place in this thread where we established that the rules were absent. I mean, I *said* so, but there was no agreement before people dove right into fun opinions. So. It's just easier to be clear.

[3278]

Dakka Dakka wasn't saying 'only follow the rules and nothing else, ever'.

I don't know what, "We can only go by what the rulebooks tell us," means, if it doesn't mean that either our conversation, or our gameplay, is dependent upon the rules, and that absent a ruling, we can only speak of the absence of something. Shadowrun doesn't mention whether spirits taste salty, so we can only rule that they don't, and that's an end of it. But it's not an end of it: maybe if we were at a tournament or something, but for our purposes, an absence of rules is just the beginning of conversation!

We all agree about that. We all also agree such conversation should be clearly labeled house rules, or speculation, or canon. Right? Then what are we talking about?