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> Ways to see an invisible opponent
nightslasthero
post Jan 25 2012, 06:01 AM
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Okay so Improved invisibility affects electronic equipment. So id figure cameras and the like. Obviously you can still be detected by sound. My question is would thermographic sensors still notice you since they work by heat not visual information. Would this extend to characters with natural thermographic vision?

Further if improved invisibility made you invisible to thermographic sensors how would it do so? It would havee to make you room temperature so how would an illusion spell know to make you room temperature?
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Neraph
post Jan 25 2012, 06:15 AM
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1) I think an argument can be made that thermographics is simply a form of light, and since light is bent by the spell thermographics would not detect invisible opponents.

2) By bending the high-energy light that is heat.

However, this assumes that the Imp. Invis. spell beats the OR of your thermographics 'ware.
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Faraday
post Jan 25 2012, 06:50 AM
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Really, improved invisibility is just one of the reasons why ultrasound sensors are awesome.
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Dakka Dakka
post Jan 25 2012, 07:30 AM
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Actually infrared light (aka heat radiation) is lower energy than visible light or ultaviolet light or x-rays. Otherwise you nailed it, Neraph.
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Irion
post Jan 25 2012, 07:38 AM
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QUOTE
1) I think an argument can be made that thermographics is simply a form of light, and since light is bent by the spell thermographics would not detect invisible opponents.

Well, this argument could be made for the whole spectrum. All electromagnetic waves...

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Psikerlord
post Jan 25 2012, 07:52 AM
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Ultrasound is for detecting invisi, chameleon suits, etc..
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Glyph
post Jan 25 2012, 08:11 AM
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The description of the invisibility spell specifically states that it works on thermographic vision. It works on the visual spectrum (for purposes of the spell, thermographic vision is apparently considered part of that), not the entire electromagnetic spectrum.
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 25 2012, 08:15 AM
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Well, if it does not stat whose visibility was meant - if you have a creature that can see the entire electromagnetic spectrum, would the spell work?
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Faraday
post Jan 25 2012, 10:59 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 25 2012, 12:11 AM) *
The description of the invisibility spell specifically states that it works on thermographic vision. It works on the visual spectrum (for purposes of the spell, thermographic vision is apparently considered part of that), not the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

Wait, wait, so a UV scanner would work?
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 25 2012, 11:46 AM
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If you mean UWB radar, then yeah. Unless the GM says otherwise.

Otherwise you'd have to clarify what you mean by UV scanner.
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Nemo
post Jan 25 2012, 12:04 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 25 2012, 12:46 PM) *
If you mean UWB radar, then yeah. Unless the GM says otherwise.

Otherwise you'd have to clarify what you mean by UV scanner.


Ultraviolet (UV) light is electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength shorter than that of visible light, but longer than X-rays, in the range 10 nm to 400 nm, and energies from 3 eV to 124 eV.
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Saint Sithney
post Jan 25 2012, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (Nemo @ Jan 25 2012, 04:04 AM) *
Ultraviolet (UV) light is electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength shorter than that of visible light, but longer than X-rays, in the range 10 nm to 400 nm, and energies from 3 eV to 124 eV.


Ahhh.. yeah.
It's just I'm not aware of such item in SR as a UV scanner.

As in, "How is that relevant to breaking Imp. Invs. in Shadowrun?" rather than "How do I UVs?"

Point is, visible and near visible are covered by the spell, but EM outside of that range is not explicitly covered and would require GM adjudication.

That adjudication being based on how they interpret Ultrasound and all that mess.
It kind of falls into that whole discussion on Ultrasound where Ultrasound says that it can work against "Invisibility" (rather than calling out Improved Invisibility by name) so it's a possible reading that Ultrasound is fooled by Imp Invs, even though that breaks fluff, and, by extension, potentially violates RAI. Meanwhile, UWB radar says "yeah, it's the same rules as Ultrasound basically" which would suggest that would bypass Imp Invis too, except that, this time, it's actually EM radiation instead of sound, which would pass the fluff test and not violate RAI.
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 25 2012, 12:55 PM
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There are UV and X-ray mods for goggles in Spy Games
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KarmaInferno
post Jan 25 2012, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 25 2012, 07:52 AM) *
Ahhh.. yeah.
It's just I'm not aware of such item in SR as a UV scanner.

Spy Games page 151, stats on page 155.



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Stahlseele
post Jan 25 2012, 01:02 PM
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flour-bombs.
well, technically.
but we'd have to go into the whole debate of:"How does this work?"
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nightslasthero
post Jan 25 2012, 01:25 PM
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Thanks guys. I didn't have the book with me to check the spell description.

Though I thought invisibility was purely an illusion (since its an illusion spell). The actual bending of light seems problematic at least in the real world. Black holes bend light to the point light orbits the black hole but pit doesn't become invisible it becomes black. So how would bending light make something invisible?

At the sametime this is a game and doesn't have to work out
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Blog
post Jan 25 2012, 02:28 PM
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We have Metamaterials IRL now that perform 'invisibility' on specific wavelengths.

By 'bending' it is commonly meant to adjust the direction of travel of whatever wavelength so that the object being hidden never interacts with it. If no interaction happens then there is no detectable disturbance and therefore you do not see the object.

Though one of the problems with describing it as 'bending' is that you would not be able to see anything yourself as all light travels around you and therefore none can reach your eyes. In another scenerio you could describe it as making yourself transparent, however this has the issue that light from all directions would reach your eyes rather then being focuses from one direction, a headache or partial insanity would be justified. However this is a fantasy setting so "its magic, a wizard did it" applies.

There are other forms of invisibility being worked around, one uses a LOT of small cameras and displays to basically show an image of what is behind you on the front or some other sophisticated imaging system. These two come to mind.
Japanese Cloak, Mirage Cloak
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Stahlseele
post Jan 25 2012, 03:34 PM
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Actually, no, Black Holes don't really become black.
No light is reflected outwards, so we can't really see the black hole itself.
We just see where there should be something and there is not.

Also, Improved invisibility has ALWAYS been problematic.
Does stuff the affected character carries also go invisible?
What happens when he drops stuff? Does it stay invisible?
And what about picking stuff up? Does stuff go invisible?
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thorya
post Jan 25 2012, 03:36 PM
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This is why I like pressure plates and monofilament wire trip lines for security. It doesn't matter how invisible someone is.
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3278
post Jan 25 2012, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 25 2012, 12:52 PM) *
It kind of falls into that whole discussion on Ultrasound where Ultrasound says that it can work against "Invisibility" (rather than calling out Improved Invisibility by name) so it's a possible reading that Ultrasound is fooled by Imp Invs, even though that breaks fluff, and, by extension, potentially violates RAI.

Why would Improved Invisibility work against ultrasound? That would be like Stealth making you invisible.

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 25 2012, 03:34 PM) *
Also, Improved invisibility has ALWAYS been problematic.
Does stuff the affected character carries also go invisible?

Yes.

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 25 2012, 03:34 PM) *
What happens when he drops stuff? Does it stay invisible?

No.

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 25 2012, 03:34 PM) *
And what about picking stuff up? Does stuff go invisible?

Yes.

I was pretty sure these were all explicitly answered; does SR4 not spell these things out?
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Stahlseele
post Jan 25 2012, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 25 2012, 04:50 PM) *
I was pretty sure these were all explicitly answered; does SR4 not spell these things out?

No.

It does not tell us how far out the invisibility extends either.
You are casting the invisibility AT A CHARACTER. Does it make his cloths invisible too?
Usually, if you affect a character with something via magic, the clothes/gear don't get affected at all.
Elemental Spells being the exception due to their elemental effects.
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Apathy
post Jan 25 2012, 04:04 PM
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How about if a gnome climbs into the backpack of an invisible troll? Are they both invisible, or does the gnome appear to be magically suspended in mid-air?
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3278
post Jan 25 2012, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 25 2012, 04:51 PM) *
It does not tell us how far out the invisibility extends either.

Effectively to anything within the target's aura that's "in the possession" of the target. So not the sidewalk he's trodding on, but the shoes he's trodding with. But if these answers aren't in SR4, then your guess is as good as mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Daylen
post Jan 25 2012, 07:58 PM
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So how would it work in the region not near visible? specicially

Radio
Microwave
terahertz
Far InfraRed
X-ray?
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Stahlseele
post Jan 25 2012, 08:19 PM
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Don't start on what is light and what not because of te whole electromagnetic spectrum stuff <.<
Basically, everything that can be seen by natural eyes(be it human or metahuman) is covered under improved invisibility i think.
That covers normal optical spectrum for humans and infra dead for dwarves and trolls.
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