Logging off or logging on?, which do I use Options

[Moon-Hawk]

So, by the rules, as I understand it, whenever you go to a new RTG, LTG, PLTG, or host, you use the Logon to RTG/LTG/Host operation.
So if I'm on a Red-12 host being chewed on by some Black IC, I can't very well logoff, but I can Logon to LTG to escape easily?
Or an even less violent example: I'm in the Red-12 Host with access through the roof. I managed to get in and kill the Black IC, but I'm all beat up, my target numbers are to hell, I can't manage a Gracefull Logoff, and I don't want the dumpshock, but I can Logon to LTG to escape?
Or is it more like:
RTG-->LTG Logon to LTG
LTG-->Host Logon to Host
Host-->LTG Graceful Logoff
LTG-->out Graceful Logoff
Host-->out Graceful Logoff

Distilled question: What's to stop deckers from logging on to the parent LTG (insanely easy) instead of logging off the host (insanely hard)?

p.s. to those quoting rules: page numbers will be appreciated

[Moon-Hawk]

Soooo.......I guess this is either a really good question or a really stupid one.
Anyone?
Anyone?
Beuller?

edit: As an additional reference, I look at Matrix pg 120 for one-way SANs and Dead-End Hosts, but that still didn't answer my question. It talked about getting trapped in a host, and the only way to escape was with a graceful logoff or an access test against "the" access rating +1d6, but doesn't say which access rating it's talking about, that of the host or the LTG. grrrr.

[bahwi]

Well, technically(not rules-wise AFAIK), you would be logging off of the host, but not a graceful logoff. Also, I forget whether IC can move in the matrix or not? But a regular security decker from a corp SHOULD be after you with a tracker and could easily follow you into an LTG and up into the RTG.

Remember LTG's are local, and have hosts on them. LTGs connect to hosts and to RTGs. RTGs are connected to other RTGs and to the LTGs within, no hosts. So it wouldn't be difficult to follow you around.

However, as far as rules go I could be way off. But who is to say there isn't a hostile decker after you, and a security decker would have access to the LTG legally, as well as a permit to use his weapons. And would come after you. And as an IC is just a creation, I would rule that they could follow you as well if you attempt to escape. But the rules may contradict me on this (I don't play any deckers and generally do not allow them, but once in a while it comes up).

Hope this helps! I doubt it but it may shed some kind of light!

[Moon-Hawk]

The Matrix rules are definitely tricky, but I love them, and so do my players (at least they seem to) so I'm determined to make them work.

That doesn't really help the problem that a Graceful Logoff TN 18 can be replaced by Logon to Host TN 5 followed by a Graceful Logoff TN 5.
Or if it can't, I'd like to get clear on why.

The best solution I can think of is that the GM keeps track of the deckers "path" through the grid, and when they're going forward it's a Logon, and when they're backtracking it's a Graceful Logoff that doesn't disconnect you, but just moves you to the previous LTG or whatever.

Of course, then what if they're going forward and pass an LTG that they've already been on? I guess this gets more like bouncing yourself around in Telnet. Ugh.

How would everyone handle this if their player tried it? Let them get away with the TN 5's? Make them Logoff? Throw the Matrix book at them?

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Moon-Hawk]

Thank you, Herald, for your input regarding my question. :S
Please, feel free to offer your wisdom regarding my other question.

Or are y'all too scared to touch this thread? :nyah:

[bahwi]

True, just trying to shed some light on the subject. I would rule if I were you (the rules do not encompass everything!) that he has to perform a graceful log off for the host to transfer his icon back to the LTG. If he can not get transferred through the connection (is trying to go directly) then he is performing it again and has to jack out or graceful log off first.

Remeber, if an IC is on his tail, they have a security tally on him and until an admin (read: hostile corp decker) comes and clears him, the host doesn't have to transfer him back. Interuppting the data stream raw and attemping to log back onto the LTG is basically jacking out and jacking back in (read: pulling the plug) just very quickly.

It's not a rules thing, but it would be an acceptable ruling IMO.

[mfb]

any TN mods to Graceful Logoff, i apply to any test for leaving the host at all. that is, i believe, more in keeping with the intention of the rules.

[Dalassa]

If you came in through the LTG then you are still logged on to it so you just need to make the logoff of the host. If you didn't then you need to logoff the host and logon to the LTG which I interpert as subsumed in the logoff call (think of it as one host passing you to another).

In simple terms beat them when they use a work around like that. In setting terms think of it as the host is screaming at the LTG about how horrible this icon is and attempting to hold you in. Warn them to keep kleenex at hand to clean up the nosebleeds.

[Moon-Hawk]

mfb: I sort of agree with that, but it still doesn't change the problem that the LTG's access rating can be up to 12 or more less than the Host's.

Dalassa: I'm afraid I don't really follow you, since "logoff of the host" is not a valid system operation. Please explain in terms of Graceful Logoff, Logon to Host, and Logon to LTG. Are you agreeing that it's either way it's an access test again the higher of the two ratings? (usually the host's)

[Dashifen]

Okay, I agree with Dalassa. This is how I see it:

1) Decker Logged on to LTG.
2) Decker found the host they wanted to infiltrate.
3) Decker Logs on to Host.
4) Decker gets hit with IC, gets scared, wants to leave.

Following these very basic steps, the Decker, in my opinion, cannot log onto the LTG right now because he is already logged onto the LTG at step one with his current icon. So, the only method to get of the host would be to use Graceful Logoff to remove any trace of his existence on the host or to pull the plug and suffer dumpshock. The second option, while it might keep him alive, would also leave evidence of his being in the host.

Another option could be this, however. Some host, like chokepoints or hidden SANs, you can log on to another host from within a host (see system tricks in Matrix). If this option is available, a logon to another host (not the LTG) might be available to the Decker. But his tally would still come with him into the new host and he/she may not be any better off than in the first place.

[toturi]

Was this situation ever covered in the Idiot's Guide to the MAtrix?

[Eyeless Blond]

Not as I recall, no. The first situation just had the guy do a Graceful Logoff and throw alot of Hacking Pool at it to make it work. :)

But, to hopefully give a bit of input to our question, I seem to recall that security tallies transfer over from spot to spot. So, if someone who has triggered (and is probably supressing) five or six pieces of IC and has a tally in the low teens/early twenties Logs On to another place, even a lowly LTG he's going to be running into about four to half a dozen events on the LTG's security sheaf right away, including most likely Probes and Scouts, whom'll jack up all your Matrix tests until you get rid of (and supress) all of 'em, and lots of other nasty pieces of IC. Logging on anywhere with a high tally is at best a risky buseness, and at worst is highly dangerous.

This, btw, is another reason to put everything really important and hard-to-crack behond a firewall (read: chokepoint.) That way when the drek hits the fan the decker won't want to Logon anywhere else, 'cause the only place to go would be the Red-hard chokepoint!

[Dashifen]

[Moon-Hawk]

Okay, so I think we're all in agreement then, that a Graceful Logoff is the option used to either backtrack or to logoff completely, and the various Logon actions are only for "forward" movement.
I think this solution is the simplest, most realistic, and will prevent the most wear-and-tear on my player-slappin'-carp.
Thanks everyone.

[Eyeless Blond]