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> Shiva Arms: Practical or Just Fun?
maine75man
post Jan 27 2012, 04:35 AM
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I've always had a thing for characters with extra arms. Don't know why but I do. My question is are there any good way's to build a character around the Shiva Arms meta-quality in 4E.
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Udoshi
post Jan 27 2012, 04:40 AM
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Yes there is.

I have, as an experiment, made a six-armed gunslinger. Its actually brutally effective.

You basically have to load up on all the dice POOL modifiers you can possibly get, so they apply after the two-gun dice split, and then do your best to cancel out any other modifiers that can tank your dice pool into glitch-heavy territory. (a means of getting guard is HIGHLY recommended)

When you put out 6 shots per simple action at 6-7 dice each, its a lot of hurt. Not because each shot does a lot of damage, but because you can very quickly whittle a defenders dice pool down to nothing, even if on a full defense, and either nickle-and-dime them to death, or just put all of your dice into one shot with your other action. Just keep in mind that if you can put out a potential 12 shots each turn, and kind of stack the odds up just enough so each of them gets at least one hit, then that is a potential -12 to someone's defense pool from subsequent attacks.

The other real use of shiva arms is to put arms on critters so you can get monster people.
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Wejoto
post Jan 27 2012, 06:31 AM
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QUOTE
You basically have to load up on all the dice POOL modifiers you can possibly get, so they apply after the two-gun dice split...


Wait, really? I wasn't aware there were any modifiers that were added after you split your pool. In fact, as far as I know, RAW says specifically to add all positive modifiers before you split your pool.
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Dakka Dakka
post Jan 27 2012, 07:32 AM
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QUOTE (Wejoto @ Jan 27 2012, 07:31 AM) *
Wait, really? I wasn't aware there were any modifiers that were added after you split your pool. In fact, as far as I know, RAW says specifically to add all positive modifiers before you split your pool.
Read the rules. All modifiers are added after the split:
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 150')
Split the pool before applying modifiers.
There is no differentiation between positive and negative modifiers.
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Udoshi
post Jan 27 2012, 07:43 AM
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QUOTE (Wejoto @ Jan 26 2012, 11:31 PM) *
Wait, really? I wasn't aware there were any modifiers that were added after you split your pool. In fact, as far as I know, RAW says specifically to add all positive modifiers before you split your pool.


Hell-no.
You ONLY split Stat+Skill.
There are ALSO special restrictions that makes smartlinks and laser sights also not apply.
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CanRay
post Jan 27 2012, 09:30 AM
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Fun and difficulty of six arms, in webcomic form. (Hint: Keep an eye on lower-lefty!)
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Irion
post Jan 27 2012, 09:42 AM
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@Udoshi
QUOTE
You ONLY split Stat+Skill.

Not quite.
You split Stat+Skill+Diceboni and afterwards you add dicepool modifier.

All ranged modifiers are to be found on the table on page 140. There are additional in the arsenal as far as I know...

Most boni from Bioware, Cyberware and Magic etc. are Dicepool boni and not modifiers. (Some are, but if so it is mentioned)
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 27 2012, 09:55 AM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 27 2012, 10:42 AM) *
You split Stat+Skill+Diceboni and afterwards you add dicepool modifier.

This is plain WRONG. There are only DP modifiers, skill (incl. skill modifiers) and attribute (incl. attribute modifiers).

QUOTE (SR4A p.150 Attacker Using a Second Firear m)
Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. Split the pool before applying modifiers.

QUOTE (SR4A p.60 Dice Pools)
When a player makes a test, she rolls a number of dice equal to her dice pool. The dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply.


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Glyph
post Jan 27 2012, 10:27 AM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 27 2012, 01:42 AM) *
@Udoshi

Not quite.
You split Stat+Skill+Diceboni and afterwards you add dicepool modifier.

All ranged modifiers are to be found on the table on page 140. There are additional in the arsenal as far as I know...

Most boni from Bioware, Cyberware and Magic etc. are Dicepool boni and not modifiers. (Some are, but if so it is mentioned)

Probably the RAI, and how I would run it myself, but unfortunately not how the rules are actually worded (although I still think that the intent - for it to only mean things like light, cover, etc. is clearly discernible). And so you have ludicrous munchkin exploits such as this, or, on the magical side, a multi-casting mage adding the full rating of his Force: 4 power focus and mentor spirit bonus to each of the spellcasting tests.
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Irion
post Jan 27 2012, 10:29 AM
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For example:
QUOTE ("Reflex recorder")
The reflex recorder adds a +1 dice
pool bonus to a specific skill or skill group

If it would be a modifier, why did they not call it like that?

QUOTE
The dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply.

So the reflex recorder would not give you any bonus by Raw. Thats right, but it is silly.
I guess they just used modifiers here as a general term. But yes, it should have been written differently.


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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Jan 27 2012, 10:38 AM
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Well, you use an old book. SR4 Errata changed it to a skill modifier.

QUOTE (SR4A p.347 / SR4 Errata)
The reflex recorder adds 1 to the rating of a specific skill or skill group (Combat and Physical skills only)


Edit: Also, i would say everything that is not a skill or attribute mod, is a DP mod.
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Medicineman
post Jan 27 2012, 11:06 AM
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Hello everybody (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
QUOTE
My question is are there any good way's to build a character around the Shiva Arms meta-quality in 4E.


Yes there Is I'm playing a Nartaki Elf (Gunslinger Adept)myself and he's (now after ca 100 KArma) quite effective and especial
versatile as well as in close Combat (4 Kukri ) or with 2-3 SMGs etc

@Splitting the Pool
There are Modifiers (positive like Specialisation,Tracerammo or in close Combat Reach and personalised Grip)
that are added AFTER splitting the Pool.Negative Ones like Wound mod, Distance,Visibility,Cover are subtracted from all Pools (of course)
and Skillmodifiers (Adept improved Skill, Reflexrecorder, some pos.Qualities) that raise the Skill and these are included BEFORE splitting the Pool

And Yes I know the FAQ but they...Suck are incorrect because they contradict RAW.

Generally speaking/writing
Akimbo shooting,especially with 4 Arms, is great if its a High Noon Situation and with a optimised Char
or if its against a small Number of Mooks

He who Dances like Shiva
Medicineman
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UmaroVI
post Jan 27 2012, 11:46 AM
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One of the interesting things about the six-armed shooter is that you end up not actually needing to be better than passable with guns in the first place; stat+skill of 6 is fine, you really just care about getting modifiers.

Udoshi, I'm curious what modifiers you had in mind. The ones I managed to dig up were:

Red Dot Sight
Tracer Ammo
Specialization
TacNet

My thought was to make a Technomancer; use a TacNet CF to get a 5+ rating Tacnet, have tricked-out drones that can stay on it, and hopefully have teammates who are willing to jam a pile of sensors on themselves to be able to run a rating 6 TacNet or something. You only need to be meh alright at shooting on its own to kamurder people, and you can still be a decently good hacker (although you probably say screw rigging and just have pokesprites do it for you).
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Mäx
post Jan 27 2012, 12:44 PM
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Tacnet has a max rating of 4.
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Dakka Dakka
post Jan 27 2012, 02:33 PM
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Where's the red dot sight from?
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Irion
post Jan 27 2012, 02:57 PM
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@Medicineman
QUOTE ("FAQ")
A dice pool is generally Skill (+ Specialization) + Attribute + anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier (foci, certain augmentations, etc.). When splitting the pool the player divides these dice however they want, keeping at least one die for each test. Dice pool modifiers (from certain augmentations, darkness, smoke, etc.) are then applied to each test separately.

Thats actually what you wrote, exept for the secializations. I reread the rules and they are not called dicepool modifiers.
(So if only modifiers are added afterwards, they are added before splitting the pool. But it is dubious, because they are neither called dicepool boni just told they are added to the test...)
Would have been great if they really made a list of which boni is what for the FAQ. So you had one source to look in...

I am a bit under the impression the whole thing was a bit overlooked. So modifiers where supposed to be only what is written down in the modifier table but then they kept adding...
(Becuase if you follow the logic all dicepool modifiers for ranged combat in the core book, need by definition to be in this table on page 140.)
@Dakka Dakka
I guess he is thinking of laser sight.
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Mäx
post Jan 27 2012, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jan 27 2012, 05:33 PM) *
Where's the red dot sight from?

Gun Heaven

And Irion specialization is a dice pool modifier, as per the following rule
QUOTE (SR4A 61)
Unless otherwise stated, any modier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modier

The FAQ just utterly fails to follow the actual rules, once again.
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Irion
post Jan 27 2012, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE ("Corebook")
These modifiers can result from injuries and
situational factors that affect what the character is trying to do.

Please quote the sentance above too...
They are talking about injuries and situational factors.
(Visibility etc.)
Like I said, thats quite questionable with specialisations.

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UmaroVI
post Jan 27 2012, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 27 2012, 07:44 AM) *
Tacnet has a max rating of 4.

Oops, you are right. Normally the limits are just on what you can buy, but TacSoft does have a hard max of 4.
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3278
post Jan 27 2012, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (maine75man @ Jan 27 2012, 04:35 AM) *
My question is are there any good way's to build a character around the Shiva Arms meta-quality in 4E.

Are there any answers to this question that don't involve the number of attack dice such a character might roll? [Um, and is there a less dickish way to ask that question? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ]
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 27 2012, 10:01 PM
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No, and no.
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CanRay
post Jan 27 2012, 10:03 PM
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The advantage is pistol in one hand, magazine in second hand, grenade in third hand, and soykaff in fourth hand. Combat and kaff at the same time!
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 27 2012, 10:23 PM
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Agreed. It's silly enough to use 2 guns at once, let alone more. Be creative about extra arms, and remember there's a reason most people don't have them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Mäx
post Jan 27 2012, 10:26 PM
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With 4 hands you can suppress 4 corridors at the same time, if you find yourself in the intersection with baddies coming from every way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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CanRay
post Jan 27 2012, 10:44 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 27 2012, 06:26 PM) *
With 4 hands you can suppress 4 corridors at the same time, if you find yourself in the intersection with baddies coming from every way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
Four arms, standard stereo vision.

Still, if you go for blindfire with some Yamaha Sakura Fubukis with EX-ex or Suppression Rounds (One of the NON-Munchie items in War!) and that might actually be effective. Especially if you mod them for Full-Auto and have some gear to handle the recoil. (Or just don't care because it's suppressive fire.).

At the very least, it'd really increase you P2.0 Rating if you had a cool Muzzle Flare Effect from the Gas Port Compensators! And we all know that's more important if you're 'Running in LA! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

EDIT: Or make like Revy @ 1:20.
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