Shiva Arms: Practical or Just Fun? Options

[Stahlseele]

Suppressive Fire does not care about blind fire, right? O.o
Also, 4 Arms==2 Troll-Bows . . *runs*

[Udoshi]

Udoshi, I'm curious what modifiers you had in mind. The ones I managed to dig up were:
Red Dot Sight
Tracer Ammo
Specialization
TacNet

The Red Dot Sight + Tracer was INDEED the bonus I was thinking of. Unlike smartlinks and laser sights, the red dot sight has no provision for not working while double wielding. Thank you, bad writers of Gun Heaven.
Synch or Sideways can give you another +1.

And you want to run your Tacnet 4 on a commlink that is commlinkmod Optimized for a Tacnet. That will give you a 'rating 5' tacnet. Unfortunately, it comes with its own drawbacks. In order to get the full bonus, you need 7 members on the net, each contributing 8 channels. That means You(1) and each of your six guns(6) just needs 8 channels, and you're good to go. A Smartgun System comes with a Camera(1) and a Laser RangeFinder(2), and its camera is explicitly spelled out as being able to take vision enhancements (4a 322), and the mod(arsenal) works exactly like the accessory.
Under 4th rules, cameras dont have any limit on accessories, under 4A, its equal to their rating. You can work around this by installing a higher rating camera, using the camera upgrade mod once you run out of accessory space, or the expensive option of Pilot upgrading your smartgun. Rating 1 is enough to get the job done, because drones have special considerations for contributing sensor channels.

Past that you really need to work to eliminate dice pool penalties from Wounds, from Cover, from Range Penalties, from Visibility Modifiers, and pretty much anything else.
The trick isn't getting good dice while multigunning, its keeping it constant enough to hit.

Suppressive Fire does not care about blind fire, right? O.o
Also, 4 Arms==2 Troll-Bows . . *runs*

Doesn't actually work. Two gunning is simple actions only. Guess what suppressive fire is?

on the magical side, a multi-casting mage adding the full rating of his Force: 4 power focus and mentor spirit bonus to each of the spellcasting tests.

That is how it works, yes. Fortunately, there are provisions for only one focus applying to a given test. So you cant have a spellcasting and a power focus helping at once.

And Irion specialization is a dice pool modifier, as per the following rule
The FAQ just utterly fails to follow the actual rules, once again.

4th Anniversary page 120: Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable
to the test.
Note how it does not increase your skill by two.

[Glyph]

Are there any answers to this question that don't involve the number of attack dice such a character might roll? [Um, and is there a less dickish way to ask that question? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ]

The trouble is that dice pool size more or less does determine how effective a character is. Also, Shiva arms, other than letting you hold a few more things at the same time, are not written with any solid, quantifiable bonuses (compare them with satyr legs, which give you higher running speed, +2 to gymnastics tests including gymnastics dodge, and +2 Strength for kick attacks).

So my answer to the original poster would be, either you can exploit the poorly worded rules on splitting dice pools, or you can go the "just fun" route. If I made a nartaki, I would probably give him bartending (with a specialization in exotic mixed drinks) and massage as knowledge skills, and name him "Forewarned".

[Udoshi]

So my answer to the original poster would be, either you can exploit the poorly worded rules on splitting dice pools, or you can go the "just fun" route. If I made a nartaki, I would probably give him bartending (with a specialization in exotic mixed drinks) and massage as knowledge skills, and name him "Forewarned".

I've always wanted to make a nartaki bartender adept, who also happens to be a masseuse. With adept multitasking to represent extra handedness.
The problem is, mechanically, you can't even use your extra hands to reload your gun or anything. They are functionally useless, because extra free actions from multitasking go away when shooting starts.

[Yerameyahu]

You can use them for that. You just don't get more *actions* for doing so. It's not like a second hand gives you more actions, either.

[Medicineman]

Agreed. It's silly enough to use 2 guns at once, let alone more. Be creative about extra arms, and remember there's a reason most people don't have them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

3 IPs and 4 MGL6 Grenade Pistols ain't silly

with an Overdance
Medicineman

[Dakka Dakka]

You forgot FA mod and MRSI on the MGL. Now that is silly.

[Shortstraw]

I was always a fan of heavy weapon shield and melee weapon all drawn so you are ready for anything (or you know climb a rope and still shoot stuff).

[UmaroVI]

Yeah, the importance of negating modifiers might make Adept an attractive choice for Adept Centering.

I'd forgotten Synch and Sideways, good catch.

[UmaroVI]

Actually, that reminds me of the other practical use of Shiva Arms - getting more cyberlimbs! Torso + 6 lower arms +2 lower legs is a mere 5.1 essence, and can get you 36 armor and a kick to the nuts from your GM.

[Medicineman]

I wonder if Shiva Arms have to be symmetrical ?

http://www.weirdspace.dk/TopCow/Graphics/MorganStryker.jpg

with a thousand wondrous Dances
Medicineman

[maine75man]

The trouble is that dice pool size more or less does determine how effective a character is. Also, Shiva arms, other than letting you hold a few more things at the same time, are not written with any solid, quantifiable bonuses (compare them with satyr legs, which give you higher running speed, +2 to gymnastics tests including gymnastics dodge, and +2 Strength for kick attacks).

So my answer to the original poster would be, either you can exploit the poorly worded rules on splitting dice pools, or you can go the "just fun" route. If I made a nartaki, I would probably give him bartending (with a specialization in exotic mixed drinks) and massage as knowledge skills, and name him "Forewarned".

Hm I have to say that the lack of quantifiable benefits for the Shiva Arms advantage is a good argument for using the dice splitting rules as written. The logic being the person who decided shiva arms was worth 15 points had to think it was for a good reason. Remember not only do you have to sink 15 to 30 bp's into shiva arms but also 15 to 25 more on ambidexterity.

[Mäx]

The Red Dot Sight + Tracer was INDEED the bonus I was thinking of. Unlike smartlinks and laser sights, the red dot sight has no provision for not working while double wielding. Thank you, bad writers of Gun Heaven.

Trying to get benefit from multiple Red Dot Sights is unlikely to result in anythink other then getting kicked to the nuts by the GM, possibly multiple times (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Also how the heck do you even target with more then one red dot sight simultaneously?

[Yerameyahu]

That's a dangerous line of thinking. If we assume the writers used logic or balance in the costs of Qualities, we'll likely all go insane. If you are risking that, though, don't forget the Rarity Tax.

Ha, Mäx! Absolutely: not everything is about exploiting obvious rules errors.

[UmaroVI]

Hmm, here's an interesting one: how about a melee-based six-armed character? The Evo Kali cyberarm optimization gives a +1 bonus to Blades test per modified arm. Now, six cyberarms is most of your essence, but I think you could make it work.

TacNet and Specialization still apply to melee; no Red Dot Sight cheese or Tracers, though. Synch still applies.

Personalized Grip only adds to that weapon, but at least you can get one each for a +1 to each attack.

Being a Troll and using base reach 1 weapons would get you another +2 per attack.

It would take some serious work to get six cyberarms and still have a way to get even a second IP, but I think you could reasonably get a base pool of 12, split to 2, +6 for Evo Kali, +5 for TacNet, +2 for Specialization, +1 for Personalized Grip, +2 Reach. That's 18 dice per blade, not half bad; there's a variety of ways to pump your damage per hit through the roof, so you could quite reasonably be a crazy murder machine.

[Raiki]

Hmm, here's an interesting one: how about a melee-based six-armed character? The Evo Kali cyberarm optimization gives a +1 bonus to Blades test per modified arm. Now, six cyberarms is most of your essence, but I think you could make it work.

TacNet and Specialization still apply to melee; no Red Dot Sight cheese or Tracers, though. Synch still applies.

Personalized Grip only adds to that weapon, but at least you can get one each for a +1 to each attack.

Being a Troll and using base reach 1 weapons would get you another +2 per attack.

It would take some serious work to get six cyberarms and still have a way to get even a second IP, but I think you could reasonably get a base pool of 12, split to 2, +6 for Evo Kali, +5 for TacNet, +2 for Specialization, +1 for Personalized Grip, +2 Reach. That's 18 dice per blade, not half bad; there's a variety of ways to pump your damage per hit through the roof, so you could quite reasonably be a crazy murder machine.

I officially love this(!), and I'll work on a build to see if I can make it work as soon as I get some free time. I'll post my results here, if you're interested.

[Yerameyahu]

Man, I hope no one notices the six-armed chrome Troll trying to get into melee range.

[Raiki]

Man, I hope no one notices the six-armed chrome Troll trying to get into melee range.

They won't. He bathed in ruthenium this morning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mäx]

Hmm, here's an interesting one: how about a melee-based six-armed character? The Evo Kali cyberarm optimization gives a +1 bonus to Blades test per modified arm.

Go read those rules again, it's +1 to blades when that arm is wielding the weapon, so it's just +1 for each arm.
Technically you could get +6 if you wielded only one bladed weapon with all 6 arms though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

It certainly doesn't make sense for 6 independent arms to give each +1 to each other, no. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ah, the magic of interpreting the rules to your benefit.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
Yeah, thats the said thing about Shadowrun. There are not thousands over thousands of spells, skill, classes which could have one combination nobody thought of... And with this one combination you can be darn powerful.
So you need to make your own loophole by stretching the rules.
Unfortunatly, this is quite easy in Shadowrun...

[Yerameyahu]

It's not the nifty concept that bothers me: multi-armed pistolero or knife-fighter is wacky, but *fun*. It's the numerical trickery used to take it from 'fun' to 'unfun'. Luckily, the GM simply can say 'no'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Charop is a fun game of theory, but it's important to remember that it can never, ever be used for real.

[Irion]

The sad thing is, that the line between munchkin and usable rules is sometimes quite thin in Shadowrun.

(It is a silly rule to split the pool anyway. Every shot shoul be made with a modifier for shooting a second firearm and the one in the off hand for shooting with the wrong hand.)

[UmaroVI]

I think it actually was meant to be +1 per arm, but it doesn't particularly matter. If you want to keep it unambiguous, you can instead use fist weapons and the Ultimate Champion arms, which very explicitly state it's a +1 bonus per arm. I just thought swords were cooler but they don't have a clear advantage over UC.

[Stahlseele]

Well, aside from Reach and better damage/AP . .