Further fun with Spirit Powers, Formula Pact times two makes the free spirit safer Options

[pbangarth]

Here's the text from Formula Pact (Street Magic page 108):

The spirit infuses a copy of its spirit formula into the character, who then carries it with him for the rest of time. The character gains the power Immunity to Age (p. 288, SR4), and the spirit cannot be affected by the use of any other copy of its formula for as long as the character lives. The character's aura is visibly tainted by the spirit's signature. The character himself may be used (or use himself) as the spirit's formula for any purposes.

The phrases "a copy" and "any other copy" suggest the copy infused in the character doesn't have to be the only copy. There doesn't appear to be any restriction on how many times "a copy" can be infused into a character. Now, if two copies are infused into two separate characters, no other copies can be used against the free spirit, and in fact neither can either of the infused copies be used, because the other one precludes it from being used against the spirit. So by infusing at least two characters with a copy of its spirit formula, the spirit is safe from the use of any copy of its formula against it, even the infused ones, as long as both of those immortal characters stay alive.

Isn't that cool?

[The Jake]

Here's the text from Formula Pact (Street Magic page 108):


The phrases "a copy" and "any other copy" suggest the copy infused in the character doesn't have to be the only copy. There doesn't appear to be any restriction on how many times "a copy" can be infused into a character. Now, if two copies are infused into two separate characters, no other copies can be used against the free spirit, and in fact neither can either of the infused copies be used, because the other one precludes it from being used against the spirit. So by infusing at least two characters with a copy of its spirit formula, the spirit is safe from the use of any copy of its formula against it, even the infused ones, as long as both of those immortal characters stay alive.

Isn't that cool?

I believe you've selectively ignored the text which states that the character can be used as the formula for all intents and purposes.

- J.

[Neraph]

the spirit cannot be affected by the use of any other copy of its formula for as long as the character lives

No he didn't The Jake.

Interesting.

[pbangarth]

Ye, that's the part that is interesting. Each infused copy would appear to prevent the other one from being used.

[The Jake]

Ok. So they just geek the character then and bye bye free spirit, because no copies of its formula remain it goes back to the astral. That is of course assuming it works as you ascribe (which I don't believe it does).

How is this remotely practical?

- J.

[Lansdren]

Could make a interesting big bad using a Free Spirit with its formula linked to a number of people, instead of going after the spirit you go after the people its linked too. Theres bound to be a few high up corp types looking for easy imortality

[snowRaven]

Here's the text from Formula Pact (Street Magic page 108):


The phrases "a copy" and "any other copy" suggest the copy infused in the character doesn't have to be the only copy. There doesn't appear to be any restriction on how many times "a copy" can be infused into a character. Now, if two copies are infused into two separate characters, no other copies can be used against the free spirit, and in fact neither can either of the infused copies be used, because the other one precludes it from being used against the spirit. So by infusing at least two characters with a copy of its spirit formula, the spirit is safe from the use of any copy of its formula against it, even the infused ones, as long as both of those immortal characters stay alive.

Isn't that cool?

I'd likely rule that once the spirit infuses its formula into the second character, the first one stops working. Since you have to apply the description to the second character: 'the spirit cannot be affected by the use of any other copy of its formula for as long as the character lives.' this means the first character will be one of those 'other' copies.

It can still protect a spirit this way, though - all of the characters have the taint of the spirit's formula, but only the most recent one can be used as an actual formula.

[pbangarth]

Ok. So they just geek the character then and bye bye free spirit, because no copies of its formula remain it goes back to the astral. That is of course assuming it works as you ascribe (which I don't believe it does).

How is this remotely practical?

- J.

Destroying a copy of the spirit formula does not send the spirit back home unless it is done in conjunction with a Banishing. But as per the description of the Pact, this doesn't work if somewhere else an infused copy exists. Now, maybe, if both were destroyed at exactly the same time during a Banishing....

It is practical if it actually prevents any and all copies of the spirit's formula from being used against it. An infused copy prevents all copies but itself from being used. Two infused copies, then, would each keep the other plus all others from being used. So, as long as the two immortal beings are alive, the spirit is free from the worry of a copy of its formula being used to command/Banish it.

I'd likely rule that once the spirit infuses its formula into the second character, the first one stops working. Since you have to apply the description to the second character: 'the spirit cannot be affected by the use of any other copy of its formula for as long as the character lives.' this means the first character will be one of those 'other' copies.

It can still protect a spirit this way, though - all of the characters have the taint of the spirit's formula, but only the most recent one can be used as an actual formula.

I thought of this nuance, but it depends on the interpretation of 'affected'. A spirit isn't actually affected by its formula until a copy of the formula is used somehow. Is the negation of the viability of other copies of the formula an effect on the spirit itself?

[snowRaven]

I thought of this nuance, but it depends on the interpretation of 'affected'. A spirit isn't actually affected by its formula until a copy of the formula is used somehow. Is the negation of the viability of other copies of the formula an effect on the spirit itself?

I don't think so, given the wording.

''the spirit cannot be affected by the use of any other copy of its formula for as long as the character lives.' is the same as:
'as long as the character lives the spirit cannot be affected by the use of any other copy.'

That takes effect as soon as the spirit infuses it's formula into the character, rendering all other formulas unusable. You don't have to wait until someone uses a formula to apply it.

Regardless of how you interpret it, it only ever talks about 'other' copies, meaning the spirit can be affected by the copy it has infused, and so it would likely only be affected by the most current Formula Pact infusion, or by ALL of them. Trying to interpret the wording so that you can't be affected by any is definately going beyond the intent of the rules as written.

[The Jake]

Destroying a copy of the spirit formula does not send the spirit back home unless it is done in conjunction with a Banishing. But as per the description of the Pact, this doesn't work if somewhere else an infused copy exists. Now, maybe, if both were destroyed at exactly the same time during a Banishing....

It is practical if it actually prevents any and all copies of the spirit's formula from being used against it. An infused copy prevents all copies but itself from being used. Two infused copies, then, would each keep the other plus all others from being used. So, as long as the two immortal beings are alive, the spirit is free from the worry of a copy of its formula being used to command/Banish it.


I thought of this nuance, but it depends on the interpretation of 'affected'. A spirit isn't actually affected by its formula until a copy of the formula is used somehow. Is the negation of the viability of other copies of the formula an effect on the spirit itself?

Ok, I can see where this coming unstuck.

On the Ally Spirit rules it states that if all copies of an ally spirit formula is destroyed it is disrupted. This isn't explicitly stated under free spirits, although as a GM I would interpret it the same. A reasonable assumption by RAI but alas, not RAW.

- J.