High Force (8+) Ally Spirit, Is it worth it? Options

[The Jake]

I plan on researching the formula from scratch but yeah, from an RP viewpoint I dunno if he'd want to lose his own soul in the process, or have it transform into something else. He is very much an individualist. Materialisation was always the primary focus. Long story short, there is a very real situation my character will be singled out by Vory for a hit or capture for interrogation some time in the not too distant future. If so, I want to make sure if he is captured I can get something to come help bail me out. A honking high powered ally spirit seems like a good idea. Especially if I can pick up Synesthesia along the way as a metamagic power.

I find the whole ally-spirit-inhabiting-you prospect super interesting. Assuming the soul is NOT destroyed in the process, it would also make the bugs potentially "less" evil (and perhaps explain why Dunkelzahn never offered a bounty for bug shamans like he did toxics and blood shamans). Perhaps they are just part of the natural cycle of life then, rather than something twisted and wrong as we all assume.

Side note: Can a free spirit learn Inhabitation? I don't think so by RAW.

- J.

[Udoshi]

SM 107: Optional Powers can come from one of the following
blablabhal
One of these powers available to some spirits: astral gateway, aura masking, divining, essence drain(some restrictions apply), materialization, possession, realistic form.

So raw, no. But an inhabitation spirit could learn to possess.

Self inhabitation IS interesting, for sure - the other possibility is just that there are two kinds of inhabitation. One that eats your soul, and one that doesn't. I'm not sure which is worse - that bugs eat your soul, or that it doesn't, but makes you watch as you turn into something inhuman.

Either way, if your character is making an ally formula from scratch, they should have some sort of influence over it - but at the same time, the exact intricacies of how Inhabitation works is one of those big secrets in shadowrun that not a lot of people even have information on. Looking into such information could make for a fantastic astral or metaplane quest.

[The Jake]

Damn... shame on not being able to learn Inhabitation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Probably a good thing though...

Either way, if your character is making an ally formula from scratch, they should have some sort of influence over it - but at the same time, the exact intricacies of how Inhabitation works is one of those big secrets in shadowrun that not a lot of people even have information on. Looking into such information could make for a fantastic astral or metaplane quest.

What metaplane would that involve a journey to... ? I can only imagine...

- J.

[Udoshi]

My guess would be finding a spirit that has experience with Inhabitation. Perhaps a former ally spirit, or even asking dragons - even lesser ones - probably knows a thing or three about ally spirits, and also tend to know all sorts of secret draconic drek. Infosteals from magical research corps could be fruitful, too - the head of ares R&D is a bug, right?

I would think the metaplane of Death or Purgatory(augmentation 156) would be a good place to learn about Inhabitation, given the nature of it consuming the host. Especially if, as you mentioned, its more of a natural cycle of life and death that everyone assume is bad.
You know. The same plane used when making cyberzombies. It even mentions needing a spirit guide.

[Yerameyahu]

If you want to do that crap *at chargen*, though, you might as well just be a Free Spirit. What a mess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Powering yourself up via Possession/Channeling is a much more… uh, traditional method of doing something quite similar.

[The Jake]

My guess would be finding a spirit that has experience with Inhabitation. Perhaps a former ally spirit, or even asking dragons - even lesser ones - probably knows a thing or three about ally spirits, and also tend to know all sorts of secret draconic drek. Infosteals from magical research corps could be fruitful, too - the head of ares R&D is a bug, right?

I would think the metaplane of Death or Purgatory(augmentation 156) would be a good place to learn about Inhabitation, given the nature of it consuming the host. Especially if, as you mentioned, its more of a natural cycle of life and death that everyone assume is bad.
You know. The same plane used when making cyberzombies. It even mentions needing a spirit guide.

Got a spirit guide I can use. Would present some interesting roleplaying options too.... heck, I might just do this to see what the GM does, even if I have no intention of creating an Inhabitation ally hahahaha.

- J.

[Neraph]

Ok... soooo....what happens if I get the Ally to Inhabit my body? I read Neraph's thread. My understanding is the summoner's soul is destroyed in the process, the spirit binds to the vessel and may/may not absorb the host's memories. So given that the summoner's soul is destroyed in the process, doesn't that mean that the Ally by default, becomes a Free Spirit? *scratches head*.

Hypothetically that is. I'd never try this in game. My GM is too evil.

Although, getting an Inhabitation ally of sufficient Force and getting it to possess the biggest, baddest mofo I can find is extremely tempting... (but I like the idea of it being able to appear out of nowhere via Materialisation way too cool...).

- J.

That's why my Ally spirit thread is so long - there was quite the debate on whether or not it would work. I think that if you use Control Thoughts on the spirit as it merges with you you should be fine.

Interestingly, Ancient Knowledge, who was a freelance writer for Catalyst and a member of the forums here, was apparently pleased with my concept. He was working on another magic book when things got to the point where he quit and released his unfinished work for free. I present:

10) Beyond the Pale
A highly tentative chapter, and intended for NPCs, which describes extremely edge-of-possibility transformation magic - the kind of spiritual and magical development and specialized rituals that take someone and make them greater, or less, than metahuman. In SR terms, this is the domain of would-be-liches, mad thaumaturges, and those seeking to /become/ the divine.

.....

Incarnation
Prerequisites: Ally Conjuration, Channeling, Possession
- The character summons an ally spirit and attempts to channel it as it inhabits them; if successful they become a flesh-form free spirit, Immune to Age and with new powers as a spirit. Of course, whether they actually transform or if they're just deluded ally spirits who believe they are their casters (which would make Incarnation a highly novel form of suicide) is a matter of academic debate.

Sound familiar?

[The Jake]

Yeah it does. Well beyond what I'm looking at.

I don't want to snap the game in half, but I'll happily dance and skirt the line of good taste as much as I can...

I'm very cognisant of ruining other players fun on this one.

- J.

[The Jake]

OK my GM won't allow any optional rules on Free Spirits. If anything I'm going to get screwed worse. So I'm just going to stop hassling him, make a Force 8 Inhabitation spirit instead of Materialisation, give it a limited number of knowledges and call it a day. If I make the spirit a True Form merge, I can effectively make it a Materialisation spirit. Also, I can then save the Inhabitation power for when I REALLY want to do something nasty (like capture and inhabit a key NPC).

- J.

[The Jake]

Out of curiosity, post creation, there is nothing by RAW that states an Ally cannot learn any other powers when you enhance it (see Enhancing an Ally in Street Magic)?

- J.

[Yerameyahu]

So I'm just going to stop hassling him, make a Force 8 Inhabitation spirit instead of Materialisation, give it a limited number of knowledges and call it a day

I like how a Force 8 Inhabitation Ally counts as 'stop hassling'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[The Jake]

I like how a Force 8 Inhabitation Ally counts as 'stop hassling'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Less emails/phone calls asking about whats permissible outside of the game?

- J.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Out of curiosity, post creation, there is nothing by RAW that states an Ally cannot learn any other powers when you enhance it (see Enhancing an Ally in Street Magic)?

- J.

Spirits can indeed learn additional powers after they have been created. You need to perform a Rritual of Change, and then pay the additional Karma for the powers/skills/spells/etc. bestowed. Note that increasing Force costs 16 karma instead of 8 with a Ritual of Change. All other Costs are the same.

[The Jake]

Spirits can indeed learn additional powers after they have been created. You need to perform a Rritual of Change, and then pay the additional Karma for the powers/skills/spells/etc. bestowed. Note that increasing Force costs 16 karma instead of 8 with a Ritual of Change. All other Costs are the same.

Cool. So ANY spirit power is on the table then - not just the ones I can summon?

- J.

[Udoshi]

I do not think so. You can give them new powers from within the usual list of spirits you have access too.

A spirit that goes Free, however, is able to take almost any power they like.

I got a special pass giving my spirits Aura Masking because I had Masking and Extended Masking metamagics, and aura masking duplicates those effects, so sometimes there is room for the GM to let you bend the rules a little to do something cool

[The Jake]

I do not think so. You can give them new powers from within the usual list of spirits you have access too.

A spirit that goes Free, however, is able to take almost any power they like.

I got a special pass giving my spirits Aura Masking because I had Masking and Extended Masking metamagics, and aura masking duplicates those effects, so sometimes there is room for the GM to let you bend the rules a little to do something cool

Yes but by RAW it doesn't say you *can't* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) - I am assuming that Free Spirit powers are off the table obviously.

It doesn't make huge sense to cap the power types anyway. Technomancers can spend an Immersion grade learning to create a Sprite that they couldn't previously. I don't see why magicians can't spend a grade learning to summon a spirit type they couldn't previous (I'd love to summon Plant and Guardian spirits) or go on a metaplanar quest to learn a new spirit power that they can imbue into their allies.

- J.

[Yerameyahu]

The why is pretty simple: cuz they can't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Feel free to house rule anything that's fun for your group, though.

[The Jake]

The why is pretty simple: cuz they can't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Feel free to house rule anything that's fun for your group, though.

Can you quote a page reference and a book title please to back that up?

- J.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Can you quote a page reference and a book title please to back that up?

- J.

In the Ally Section... Where you can only select powers available TO THE SPIRITS YOU CAN ACTUALLY SUMMON.
Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Don't remember the page, though.

Oh... And Spirits are not Sprites; and Technomancers are not Magicians... Don't compare tham and you will be much happier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[The Jake]

In the Ally Section... Where you can only select powers available TO THE SPIRITS YOU CAN ACTUALLY SUMMON.
Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Don't remember the page, though.

Oh... And Spirits are not Sprites; and Technomancers are not Magicians... Don't compare tham and you will be much happier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have re-read it and it says that is for ally creation, not enhancing. Nowhere does it state it can't be done.

Where is toturi when you need him?

- J.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have re-read it and it says that is for ally creation, not enhancing. Nowhere does it state it can't be done.

Where is toturi when you need him?

- J.

If you cannot create it with it, then you cannot enhance it with it. They use the same rules, after all, with only one minor tweak after creation (FOrce costs 16 Karma per point after creation) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

If you're going to start using the "if it doesn't I can't" standard, you might as well just stop and houserule anything you want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's just faster.

[The Jake]

My GM is being a tightfisted asshole on this one. RAW is all I have.

- J.

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe, so the solution is to assume RAW includes anything not disallowed? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I'm just saying that there's an inherent disconnect there, not that you shouldn't do it. Hehe. Something along the lines of, 'Dad said a gun's too dangerous, so I'll stab him instead'.

[The Jake]

I don't think I'm being anywhere as obstinate as other people on this board. I will discuss some ingame options with him and house rules that I think might be reasonable, but I think my GM secretly hates the idea, won't admit it and deliberately trying to steer me away. I am not easily deterred.

- J.