The economics of SR Options

[Wakshaani]

That and it's easier than a barter system to have some kind of relative and effective way of equating things to a set number. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, "How many corns of cob for my doctor visit?" and "How many sweaters will you give me for my cow?" is too headache-inducing.

So, these days? We just adore money. Cash money!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...FBCIzwxp8#t=78s

[maine75man]

That's how it works today: when you (or a business or government) get a loan, the bank doesn't loan you money it already has. Instead, the bank creates the money it'll loan you.

As I understand it the bank doesn't create the money out of thin air. A bank is allowed to loan a certain amount of money based on their total assets. Including both money on hand and expected returns on investments. The money is created as a product of the value added services the Banks provide.

[maine75man]

Kinda.

It's illegal to forge currency.

You can actually print your own, if you can convince other people to take it. There's a few places in the American NorthEast that do this, for instance. (Vermont, I want to say. I'd have to unleash the spiders to find out.) You just have to make it crystal clear that it isn't US currency.

Almost.


Most community currencies do take pains to not look like "real" currency. However it's more important that things like Berkshares or Ithaca Hours make it clear they are only usable in limited markets for specific kinds of transactions. Also it is important that their use is by and large voluntary.

The FBI has successfully prosecuted people saying that “it is a violation of federal law for individuals, [...] or organizations,[...] to create private coin or currency systems to compete with the official coinage and currency of the United States.”

In the case of the Liberty Dollar the defendant did make some of his currency look similar enough to US coinage that people might mistake it for legal tender. The government probably could have gotten him on just a forgery charge but they sought a broader ruling. They apparently proved that this guys intent was to compete with legally issued currency not just mislead the public. The defense is appealing sighting private barter currencies like some of the community currencies mentioned above, though.

Where company script has gotten into trouble in the past is when businesses have refused to make or take payments in anything but their currency. Or they tried to use company script as a way to get around taxes or anti-trust legislation.

[Irion]

Where company script has gotten into trouble in the past is when businesses have refused to make or take payments in anything but their currency. Or they tried to use company script as a way to get around taxes or anti-trust legislation.

For what else do you think it was invented...
The second I have my own currency I can write my own books, as I would like them to be.
All your employee would earn tax free money.
And this does not only include the "works", also subcontractors.

[Chinane]

The problem with buying the items at wholesale is buying the items. Say a box of goods costs 500 nuyen. Sure you can sell it for 200,000 corpate script but that nets you Zero Nuyen, so you have no nuyen to rebuy the 500 nuyen box. You have to get money (actual nuyen) elsewhere. Not a good business proposition. The only vaiable alternative is to make the items yourself. This is likely still not a valid solution since nuyen would be required to buy at least part of the goods, and you are simply exchanging goods for labor, but not really making a profit on them.

That's not how (or why) it works.

You completely forget that you get 200,000 corporate scrip's WORTH of production for that 500 nuyen box. And of course corps mainly sell their own products OUTSIDE of their own turf, i.e. for nuyen. Presumably more than 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .


The mere fact that the CORPs have full control over corp scrip/nuyen conversion rates by stocking their corp stores and adjusting the pricing there, is actually why the system should work a lot BETTER than national currencies in real life. For the corps anyway. But it also has the potential to turn into a real win/win situation as outlined by Warlordtheft.

[Daddy's Litt...]

corp script might be a bene for clients. like how gas station charge you more for paying credit instead of cash.

In theory if the compnay sells its products to it's employees for only slightly more than cost so long as it is done in corp script, it will be a positive experience for the employee holding their loyalty. "Look honey if we get that new washer at Sears it will be (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 650 but if I get it through the company store that same model is only 450!"

[Wakshaani]

As I understand it the bank doesn't create the money out of thin air. A bank is allowed to loan a certain amount of money based on their total assets. Including both money on hand and expected returns on investments. The money is created as a product of the value added services the Banks provide.

Well, kinda.

When a bank loans you money, it *does* create it out of thin air, with the collateral being a not ethat says you owe the bank X dollars + Y, where X is what you took out and Y is the interest that it'll be charged. The most that a bank can loan out is based on the actual on-hand reserves it has (IE, savings accounts) that are in the bank, based on a fractional reserve system. (See also: Fractional reserve banking) ... what this means is, for instance, if the fractional reserve rate is 20-1, for every thousand dollars the bank has as an actual concrete asset, it can loan out twenty thousand dollars, creating this digital currency out of thin air via computer.

The banks, thus, produce *vastly* more money than the US Mint actually prints.

It's a slick system, where they make profit on loaning money that doesn't really exist.

Fascinating reading, but the videos on YouTube get everything right for about three quarters of the education, then launch into crazytown. I can drop some links if you'd like?

[Blade]

Fascinating reading, but the videos on YouTube get everything right for about three quarters of the education, then launch into crazytown. I can drop some links if you'd like?

I think we're thinking about the same video. I guess it was meant as some kind of propaganda. Not that I'm fond of the whole financial system, but I hate it even more when people disguise propaganda under the guise of education.

[CanRay]

I think we're thinking about the same video. I guess it was meant as some kind of propaganda. Not that I'm fond of the whole financial system, but I hate it even more when people disguise propaganda under the guise of education.

Funny, that was the only education I ever got.

And not even propaganda for my own country, either!

[hobgoblin]

Well, kinda.

When a bank loans you money, it *does* create it out of thin air, with the collateral being a not ethat says you owe the bank X dollars + Y, where X is what you took out and Y is the interest that it'll be charged. The most that a bank can loan out is based on the actual on-hand reserves it has (IE, savings accounts) that are in the bank, based on a fractional reserve system. (See also: Fractional reserve banking) ... what this means is, for instance, if the fractional reserve rate is 20-1, for every thousand dollars the bank has as an actual concrete asset, it can loan out twenty thousand dollars, creating this digital currency out of thin air via computer.

The banks, thus, produce *vastly* more money than the US Mint actually prints.

It's a slick system, where they make profit on loaning money that doesn't really exist.

Fascinating reading, but the videos on YouTube get everything right for about three quarters of the education, then launch into crazytown. I can drop some links if you'd like?

I think there is a old Fed chair quote floating around saying something to the effect of "banks issue loans first and look for reserves later". The fractional reserve system may look nifty on paper, but it breaks in that banks only need to have the reserves on their books when the accountants come knocking.

[ArmourDefense]

One difference between issued scips or locally created currencies, is that they are not considered at the federal level to be legal tender. In my introductory business class legal tender differs form other forms of payment in that the government considers any debt paid for which legal tender was offered. The legal tender doesn't have to be accepted, just honestly offered in a situation where it is reasonable where the offerer can actually provide the legal tender to clear the debt.

This is in many ways a use our government issued currency or else manuever by the governments, so in shadowrun difficulties in enforcement would come up especially given extraterritorial nature of mega corps.

Once again in my introductory knowledge of present day law, in a court arbitration of a dispute or similar someone has no legal obligation to take scrips (or barter in many cases), but having accepted payment in other than legal tender in a written, verbal, or sufficiently implied agreement as to the value of the items being exchanged is still sufficient to clear a debt.


and with that I drop off the internet for two more weeks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[hobgoblin]

Tho when a corporation is a de-facto nation, this gets a bit more interesting. Especially if a employee is a citizen of the corp, not the nation the corp holding is located within. Heh, that could be interesting inside any nation with a strict visa policy. Just walking out the corp compound gates could require a visa.

[CanRay]

Or into.

[hobgoblin]

True. Hell, now i wonder if corp run malls and such act like their take on free trade zones.

[CanRay]

True. Hell, now i wonder if corp run malls and such act like their take on free trade zones.

Most likely. "Wow! A whole mall full of Duty Free!"

[Nath]

Tho when a corporation is a de-facto nation, this gets a bit more interesting. Especially if a employee is a citizen of the corp, not the nation the corp holding is located within. Heh, that could be interesting inside any nation with a strict visa policy. Just walking out the corp compound gates could require a visa.

The typical scenario to justify the need for corporate citizenship would be an European oil company that wants its best engineer, an Israeli citizen, to work on an oilrig in Iran. Geopolitics would cause an insufferable hindrance to free trade, solved with the issue of a corporate passport. But the engineer probably better not step out of the extraterritorial compound.

True. Hell, now i wonder if corp run malls and such act like their take on free trade zones.

Canon-wise, there was a Weapons World inside the Renraku arcology (the chain was owned by Seatle businessman Diderson Kyogi, and later sold to AA Monobe International). On the other hand, it is not necessarily in the megacorporation best interest to help smaller companies to make business, evade taxes and undercut the local government budget (which funds the roads and the police patrols that allow consumers to reach the mall ; corporate people stop being liberal as soon as profits drop). That's especially true for the largest megacorporations, who have subsidiaries on every possible markets, making any outsider a competitor.

[CanRay]

Yeah, but I bet Weapons World sells 'Raku Firearms and Ammo, however.

[Stahlseele]

bunRaku Firearms and Ammo! If you want to be a really naughty one for a night!

[CanRay]

Renraku firearms and ammo: When you want to communicate your displeasure with the world!

[Stahlseele]

Bunraku Firearms and Ammo. Pleasure before Business!

[Daylen]

As I understand it the bank doesn't create the money out of thin air. A bank is allowed to loan a certain amount of money based on their total assets. Including both money on hand and expected returns on investments. The money is created as a product of the value added services the Banks provide.

Depends on the bank and who you are. The big banks that are the federal reserve print money to loan to themselves and other banks. The other banks work as you expect.