Augmentation: Breast Implants Options

[ShadowJackal]

I slept on this and decided I'd comment.

I think that this is one of those times when its crystal clear a man wrote something concerning a woman. Breasts are insanely intimate and personal, plainly put, they are not a fashion accessory. I find it extremely difficult to believe that most women will be able to get past the emotional responses concerning breast augmentation to simply use them as a vessel to create some advantage. They are not pockets, they are not a purse, they are breasts.

Women opt for breast reconstruction and augmentation for many reasons, many of them insanely personal. Breasts are integral to a woman's sexuality in many cases, in other words, they often make a woman feel like a woman. They aren't fun bags, they aren't a "Rack" and they certainly aren't some accessory you can toss a bad excuse for /d/ porn in.

Between this and the dragon birthing in Conspiracy Theories I'm pretty disgusted with things right now. Shadowrun needs some female perspective. Stat.

[Hamsnibit]

I slept on this and decided I'd comment.

I think that this is one of those times when its crystal clear a man wrote something concerning a woman. Breasts are insanely intimate and personal, plainly put, they are not a fashion accessory. I find it extremely difficult to believe that most women will be able to get past the emotional responses concerning breast augmentation to simply use them as a vessel to create some advantage. They are not pockets, they are not a purse, they are breasts.

Women opt for breast reconstruction and augmentation for many reasons, many of them insanely personal. Breasts are integral to a woman's sexuality in many cases, in other words, they often make a woman feel like a woman. They aren't fun bags, they aren't a "Rack" and they certainly aren't some accessory you can toss a bad excuse for /d/ porn in.

Between this and the dragon birthing in Conspiracy Theories I'm pretty disgusted with things right now. Shadowrun needs some female perspective. Stat.

You are saying this from your personal point of view.
This setting and its people are 70 years in the future and sexual content is a thing which is used in burger commercial and generally totally overused.
The definition of intimacy is and always will be fluctuating and therefore i think cyberbrast should have their place in SR.

When im able to replace my dick with something which can support an infinite erection and if this is what i want where is the problem with cyberbreasts?

Genitals are overrated anyways.

[Stahlseele]

Why would there be a difference for women in getting cyber-tits in comparison to getting cyber-arms or eyes or anything else basically?

[ShadowJackal]

You are saying this from your personal point of view.
This setting and its people are 70 years in the future and sexual content is a thing which is used in burger commercial and generally totally overused.
The definition of intimacy is and always will be fluctuating and therefore i think cyberbrast should have their place in SR.

When im able to replace my dick with something which can support an infinite erection and if this is what i want where is the problem with cyberbreasts?

Genitals are overrated anyways.

No. I'm saying that from a *WOMAN'S* point of view. Until you are a female, I'm sorry, but I refuse to accept your opinion on the intimacy level of the female genitalia now or 60 years in the future in a game. You are not a woman, you do not, and will not understand. My perspective may be my own, but trust me when I say it is not unique.

Breast Augmentation Support Groups would not exist if they simply were a purse that women wanted the ability to change on whim. I won't comment on your genitalia because I am not a man and have no right to do so.

Why would there be a difference for women in getting cyber-tits in comparison to getting cyber-arms or eyes or anything else basically?

There is a sexual and intimate connection with breasts. Again. Not a vessel, they are a sexual and intimate object that defines femininity.

Also, please do not refer to them as "Tits", it is insanely disrespectful. They are breasts.

[Udoshi]

Why would there be a difference for women in getting cyber-tits in comparison to getting cyber-arms or eyes or anything else basically?

Frankly, for the same reason that men don't line up to get their dick chopped off and replaced with metal.

I slept on this and decided I'd comment.

I think that this is one of those times when its crystal clear a man wrote something concerning a woman. Breasts are insanely intimate and personal, plainly put, they are not a fashion accessory. I find it extremely difficult to believe that most women will be able to get past the emotional responses concerning breast augmentation to simply use them as a vessel to create some advantage. They are not pockets, they are not a purse, they are breasts.

Women opt for breast reconstruction and augmentation for many reasons, many of them insanely personal. Breasts are integral to a woman's sexuality in many cases, in other words, they often make a woman feel like a woman. They aren't fun bags, they aren't a "Rack" and they certainly aren't some accessory you can toss a bad excuse for /d/ porn in.

Between this and the dragon birthing in Conspiracy Theories I'm pretty disgusted with things right now. Shadowrun needs some female perspective. Stat.

While I am often the the Raw-Fu book ninja around here, sometimes its nice to have more of a real world viewpoint beyond what the rules provide. Tehana, thank you for being the voice of reason.

I want to point out that Tehana brings up a pretty relevant point before all the naysayers jump on it.

[Yerameyahu]

The penile implant is in the book; done. If anything, I've seen significant more threads discussing novel uses for *that* than any mention of cyberbreasts (disrespected by ignoring?). The fact is that breast implants exist today, so there's no reason they wouldn't exist in the future. And a cyberarm or cyber*skull* is pretty personal.

Judge slang terms on the grounds of rudeness or impropriety, but don't act as if they can't (or shouldn't) exist. You mentioned 'insanely' a couple times, and it's getting convincing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) There are so many things to get tweaked about in SR: to choose breast implants and salty language is aiming so low.

I'd bet that, in the world of outcast nutball criminals for hire, someone in RL has 'used' breast implants before. The fake pregnant belly is a classic trick, and what could be more intimate and personal than that? Humans (not 'men') are callous and inventive. Despite the massive 'disrespect', males still get kicked in the crotch by people seeking a combat advantage. I don't think anyone said the norm would be every female in SR (in your words, "most women") walking around with resizable mammaries, but it's silly to say that no one ever would.

[Stahlseele]

There is a sexual and intimate connection with penises. Again. Not a vessel, they are a sexual and intimate object that defines masculinity.

Also. Please do not refer to them as "Dicks", it is insanely disrespectful. They are penises.


Furthermore, judging from all the viagra and penis pump and enlargement spam around, i'd hazard a guess that many would, indeed, get a metal penis, as long as it feels good.
What would i give for a bit more control! Getting an errection while doing a presentation or something similar is fucking uncomfortable and embarassing!
Furthermore, being able to switch off the sensations from there would make it much less dangerous to get into brawls and the such. Kick to the Groin. Who cares, mine's off!

And don't forget bragging. Yours is how long? I can make mine more or less any length and circumfence desired be the women! And i can make it taste like chocolate! And i can punch holes through beer cans with it!

[ShadowJackal]

Wow.

Look, you can take whatever you want from my words. All I'm saying is that there is a considerable male perspective problem with this topic and many topics in the game, and I do have an issue with the terminology used in this thread. I understand I'm playing in the boy's sandbox but really, you should consider a female perspective from time to time. And hell, maybe if you were a little more considerate there'd be more women that wanted to be involved, but after lurking on here for a year or two and posting for a few months now I can understand why an opinion like mine isn't welcome.

Make your game whatever you want, but don't disrespect my perspective on something I live with every day.

[Yerameyahu]

I think it's important to separate out the several issues under discussion, though. There's word choice, there's implicit favoring of one perspective, there's augmentation body issues (as noted, it's a exotic item, not a normal one), and they're all distinct. It's not helpful to lump them all together into a mystical femininity that 'men can never understand' (yet all women agree on).

So, how do those separate issues fall out? Is the main problem the existence of (many) terms which are disrespectful (though I'm not sure how 'breasts' became so privileged)? Is the main problem the existence of an exotic and extreme cyberware mod (and its direct counterpart for males)? Is the main problem that DS doesn't give equal time to joking about one or the other (I really think I've seen much more about the penile option)? Other?

[Blade]

I understand what you're saying but from some talks I had with my ex-gf and a few other girls, I think though you probably have a better vision of the female perspective than us, you probably can't talk for all women.

[ShadowJackal]

I think it's important to separate out the several issues under discussion, though. There's word choice, there's implicit favoring of one perspective, there's augmentation body issues (as noted, it's a exotic item, not a normal one), and they're all distinct. It's not helpful to lump them all together into a mystical femininity that 'men can never understand' (yet all women agree on).

I understand what you're saying but from some talks I had with my ex-gf and a few other girls, I think though you probably have a better vision of the female perspective than us, you probably can't talk for all women.

I'm sorry if I sounded absolute. Personal flaw. There are many perspectives, but the only ones that are relevant to this discussion, in my opinion, are female. There are, and will be women who do not feel intimately connected to their genitalia. I'm sure in the Sixth World this will be at least as prevalent if not more so. I do believe that this will be the exception rather than the norm though.

My issue with this thread is that of perspective, word usage and disrespect for female view. Mine is my own, but is that of a woman. I do not speak for all women and never will, but I'm the only one that's spoken up from what I can tell. From my perspective, I am appalled. There are issues that need to be taken into consideration when discussing female sexuality and gender identity. It's not a subject that is easy to take lightly, especially in the manner this thread has presented. There's a distinct level of disrespect.

I can joke as much as the next person about anything, including sexuality, and breasts, but the issue here is that it has been done in a very disrespectful manner.

[Yerameyahu]

Can you be specific about any of those points? It seems practical, if not necessarily correct, to proceed with the assumptions that the two gender options are male/female, and that 'real' females are the ones who "feel intimately connected to their genitalia"; so let's go with those assumptions.

Given that, the problem is specifically the idea that cyberware mammaries would a) exist, and b) be used in any utilitarian way? (Remembering that this augmentation is only for the exceptional/abnormal females, by our assumptions.) Additionally, the problem is that posters here aren't referring to that idea with the respect it deserves?

[ShadowJackal]

Can you be specific about any of those points? It seems practical, if not necessarily correct, to proceed with the assumptions that the two gender options are male/female, and that 'real' females are the ones who "feel intimately connected to their genitalia"; so let's go with those assumptions.

Given that, the problem is specifically the idea that cyberware mammaries would a) exist, and b) be used in any utilitarian way? (Remembering that this augmentation is only for the exceptional/abnormal females, by our assumptions.) Additionally, the problem is that posters here aren't referring to that idea with the respect it deserves?

I never said anything about "real" females and never referred to anyone who would want such a thing to not be abnormal. I simply do not think it would be something most with female genitalia would desire or choose lightly.

[thorya]

Not trying to put words in tehana's mouth, but I believe the problem is that society is inherently biased in the favor of men. Male sexuality and female sexuality are not viewed the same. Women don't judge men on their penis size, the way men judge women on their breast size. (the only people that really care about penis size, especially length, are men) This means that you can't draw an analogy between writing about penis augmentation and breast augmentation. Because the writers are male and writing from a male perspective in a society where that is the accepted norm, they are going to represent a male perspective and not even realize that there is another one. When you describe penis augmentations, you're describing male power fantasies. When you describe female breast augmentation, you're still describing male power fantasies. It's the same reason that simply including scantily clad, muscle men in comics doesn't make comic book representations of women fair and balanced. It's the same reason that sexist jokes about women offend women more than sexist jokes about men (for one there are way fewer sexist jokes about men), because the sexist jokes about women reinforce hidden prejudices and men expect women to laugh at themselves and implicitly accept the humor being found in them being inferior.

It would be like trying to draw an analogy between cracker and nigger as racist terms and claiming that one is the same as the other. One is more offensive, because it was invented by a social structure that exploited one group to the benefit of the other. If you think they are the same because both make fun of someone different than you, then you are not aware that there are more perspectives than your own.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Well, you dont judge on penis size because you normally dont see the size of ones package, whereas the breast size is normally visible to bystanders (except in a cold winter or with a burka etc.)

[Hamsnibit]

Well, you dont judge on penis size because you normally dont see the size of ones package, whereas the breast size is normally visible to bystanders (except in a cold winter or with a burka etc.)

Well, you just have to pay proper attention at the right time and you would be surprised ...

[ShadowJackal]

Well, you dont judge on penis size because you normally dont see the size of ones package, whereas the breast size is normally visible to bystanders (except in a cold winter or with a burka etc.)

I've always wondered how men would feel about breasts if the size of their testicles were visible for all to see through clothing and if females chose men as mates based on their size and shape.

[Yerameyahu]

You did say such women weren't the norm, tehana. I do wish you'd respond to the substantive questions I posed, though. :/

Here are some more: is it okay for men to dress in drag? Is it okay for women to pose as men? Is it okay to do each with the benefit of a 'disguise' (padded bra/etc.)? Is it okay for someone in 2070 to use a high-tech version of that (the breast cyberware), for that purpose (and whether that someone is 'male' or 'female')? I don't think the use case presented initially in this thread is ridiculous (that is, solely for ridicule); it seems reasonable that some small number of people would use this option as another disguise tool in their arsenal (less extreme than Jigsaw Skull, for sure). After all, it's not only females who are allowed to take this augmentation (nor is the penile implant male-only, though it has very limited disguise uses).

--
I don't see how that would change how men feel about breasts; instead, it might change how men feel about nuts. However, it is extremely common in the gay community to treat dicks (and the whole 'package') in *exactly* the way breasts are treated. (Go check out Arnold Zwicky's blog.) So, we don't really have to speculate, we can see it today IRL.

[ShadowJackal]

You did say such women weren't the norm, tehana. I do wish you'd respond to the substantive questions I posed, though. :/

Here are some more: is it okay for men to dress in drag? Is it okay for women to pose as men? Is it okay to do each with the benefit of a 'disguise' (padded bra/etc.)? Is it okay for someone in 2070 to use a high-tech version of that (the breast cyberware), for that purpose (and whether that someone is 'male' or 'female')? I don't think the use case presented initially in this thread is ridiculous (that is, solely for ridicule); it seems reasonable that some small number of people would use this option as another disguise tool in their arsenal (less extreme than Jigsaw Skull, for sure). After all, it's not only females who are allowed to take this augmentation (nor is the penile implant male-only, though it has very limited disguise uses).

--
I don't see how that would change how men feel about breasts; instead, it might change how men feel about nuts. However, it is extremely common in the gay community to treat dicks (and the whole 'package') in *exactly* the way breasts are treated. (Go check out Arnold Zwicky's blog.) So, we don't really have to speculate, we can see it today IRL.

Norm was used in exchange for majority. I should have used the term majority for the sake of clarity. I am having a hard time reading the questions that you are posing as anything more than bait to further construe an argument. I'm sorry if that is not your intended purpose but often online things come off as disconnected due to the lack of human face to face interaction.

In short, I fully support transgender rights, I have several very close loved ones that are TG, and feel that is one of the most important reasons to have things like cyber genitals in Shadowrun.

I understand what you are saying about the gay community but the fact is that male genitalia is not "On Display" effectively when you are out in your everyday life. Tight fitting pants can surely expose general shape and size but breasts are effectively at eye level and fairly hard to disguise. There is a similarity between the two but breasts are by far more exposed and exploited than male genitals.

[Yerameyahu]

You were right to do so: majority is the norm, by definition. I wasn't saying you denied transgender rights, or marginalized the non-majority women you described.

It's not a contest of who's more exposed; I was just offering a similar cultural practice practice as an example that might inform our discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (I dunno if I agree that (most) breasts are terribly difficult to disguise, especially to the standard of 'very tight pants'. I agree that the culture isn't one that makes such disguise the current norm, though.)

I guess what you call 'baiting', I call 'teasing apart the question into chunks I can understand'. :/ I'm having trouble because your points so far are pretty sweeping generalities, and to me, vague. Insofar as I understand them, I think everyone agrees: it's a patriarchal society, the 'male' perspective is the default, etc. But that's everywhere, every day. I'm just trying to nail down the specific issues that disgusted you in this thread; you responded strongly.

[Xenefungus]

To get substance back into this: Cyberbreasts don't give any bonus dice to disguise tests, and neither does implanted hair. So by RAW, they should not have any effect on those checks. That is why i always thought of them as "cosmetic" ware, without any 'real' advantages.

But it seems some dumpshockers beg to differ here. Do you have houserules in place for this? Are the costs of those items increased now that they offer more then they were supposed to? Or do you simply handwave the effects they have in your game?

[Yerameyahu]

Xenefungus, generic disguise 'accessories' do give a situation bonus on the test, IIRC. "Plausible supporting evidence" is the best guess, but perhaps "Character has the right look" in some cases. But you're right: the game can't be played entirely on listed numeric effects. Some things just make sense.

[Hamsnibit]

To get substance back into this: Cyberbreasts don't give any bonus dice to disguise tests, and neither does implanted hair. So by RAW, they should not have any effect on those checks. That is why i always thought of them as "cosmetic" ware, without any 'real' advantages.

But it seems some dumpshockers beg to differ here. Do you have houserules in place for this? Are the costs of those items increased now that they offer more then they were supposed to? Or do you simply handwave the effects they have in your game?

Sometimes they can be a plainly neccessary if you want to copy several people. You can flatten cyberbreasts down to the size of a male chest, combined with other disguise tricks you can emulate several people male, female anything in between or combined in SR.
You simply might be female and like to enlargen you chest for your partner because it doubles the fun in bed where it otherwise would be impractical, god knows.
If you simply want breasts you would go for a much cheaper and easier biosculpting.

And no i dont see any reason why they would provide dice pool bonuses.

[CanRay]

Actually, I always saw Cyberbreasts as "The New Breast Implants" (And, yes, women do want those), as well as an option for Transgendered People.

But, hey, I'm just a Man that knows a few Transgendered people trying to transition, and Women that have gotten or want breast implants as well as Women who hate them.

[Mäx]

To get substance back into this: Cyberbreasts don't give any bonus dice to disguise tests, and neither does implanted hair. So by RAW, they should not have any effect on those checks. That is why i always thought of them as "cosmetic" ware, without any 'real' advantages.

But it seems some dumpshockers beg to differ here. Do you have houserules in place for this? Are the costs of those items increased now that they offer more then they were supposed to? Or do you simply handwave the effects they have in your game?

For the scenario i out-lined before, i dont really see it being a disguise test but more of a con test and for that changing the size of your bosom and colour of your hair is an easy +3 dice, posibly much more if you can convince you GM.
After all your not trying to disguise as someone,but just to to look as differed as you quickly can from the picture they have of you.