Augmentation: Breast Implants Options

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

that would still be a disguise test, just to obscure your original appearance and not to impersonate someone (e.g. another form you can specialize in)

[Yerameyahu]

Either way, we understand that the numbers don't capture everything. Changing your physical appearance by whatever methods can be understood as *required* for the Disguise test itself; you can't just say, 'I roll disguise' and miraculously change. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Hamsnibit]

Convincing people that you are female without any traces of a bust while showing a profound mustache is the pornomancers domain.

[Stahlseele]

Convincing people that you are female without any traces of a bust while showing a profound mustache is the pornomancers domain.

Discworld Dwarves come to mind.

[Xenefungus]

For the scenario i out-lined before, i dont really see it being a disguise test but more of a con test and for that changing the size of your bosom and colour of your hair is an easy +3 dice, posibly much more if you can convince you GM.

Wait, shouldn't we then get bonus dice to con (seduction) just as well? Pornomancer would be happy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Speaking of it, would multiples stack?

I think that a Centaur with double Shiva arms (12 possible cyberlimbs altogether; lets go for bulk mod also) would be able to get hundreds of Cyberbreast implants quite easily.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

you only get a DP bonus if the target likes big breasts -> +2 romantically attracted

For disguise, you should get the bonus every time when you go from flat to busty or the other way, because it changes your appearance

[Yerameyahu]

I think you're being silly, Xenefungus, but that's probably *why* there's no listed bonus. Tastes vary, context matters, etc. The mechanical bonus (or lack thereof) is simply not that important. It's about roleplaying.

[Hamsnibit]

Thats depends on what kind of table you got.
Mileage may vary.

[Mäx]

that would still be a disguise test, just to obscure your original appearance and not to impersonate someone (e.g. another form you can specialize in)

Disguise test makes no sense what so ever, if the character is just changing the settings of their implants, thats is just a simple absolute change in the characters look.
After that you just use con to get the ones looking for you to believe your not you.

[Yerameyahu]

That's just a muddy area between the skills, Mäx; nothing can really be done about that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Technically, changing your appearance is the domain of Disguise. You could construe *anything* as Con if you rationalize hard enough, hehe.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

well, in combination with fiber-optic hair, color-changing chlothing and altskin w/ shade&shifter mod it would be a disguise check.

[Mäx]

well, in combination with fiber-optic hair, color-changing chlothing and altskin w/ shade&shifter mod it would be a disguise check.

Not to me.
I kinda think that character actually has to do something for there to be a test, as the test is for seeing how well a character succeeds in doing what she tries to do.
There just isn't really anything that the characters skill would affect when using those to change ones appearance, unless your trying to make yourself to look like some specific person .

[Yerameyahu]

Well, you're wrong, as far as the limited and imperfect rules available to us go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In an ideal game, perhaps there would be a distinction there. In SR4, all those chosen changes and tactics represent the skillful application of Disguise knowledge.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Sometimes they can be a plainly neccessary if you want to copy several people. You can flatten cyberbreasts down to the size of a male chest, combined with other disguise tricks you can emulate several people male, female anything in between or combined in SR.

This is actually an interesting idea, a true transgender character who can pose as women or men at a whim - with functional parts, even, at least - at present - if he starts out as a woman. However, I'm thinking there is really no reason not to have cybergenitalia for women, too, even a uterus, as a medicinal implant to help conception or carrying to term, so basically you could take a neutered clone and turn it into anything you wish.

For the disguise deal some more cosmetic cyber or bioware would be needed to slightly change the frame and posture, and add or subtract a bit of shape in other places.

@Tehana, and I'm spoilering parts of this so that only people who really want to can read it:

You're probably right about the whole (dis)respect issue. However, railing against it in general on an internet forum - and this forum in particular - is of limited use - because you're surrounded by people who probably say about themselves "Of course I (don't dis-) respect women", the validity of which you are challenging. Also, they will accuse you of presenting us with your gut reaction as the female point of view.

[ Spoiler ]

Subjectivity disclaimer: Experience and analysis, including extrapolation, NOT scientific study!
So, of course I'm one of them. I respect women very much, but sexual objectification is still a key feature of my relationship with them. Understand that men are superficially aroused by projections, a lot of them somehow stroking our ego, consciously or unconsciously. For example, most if not all porn is a tool for projection, and the - mind you, disgusting - humiliation aspects are in it to stroke our egos even more. At the time when we completely respect a woman, and know her intimately, too, she often loses a good bit of sexual attraction, and having both is pretty hard. So when I respect her and therefore have to deal with her rationally then I also have to deal with the fact that my sexual projections of her are so stupid. I believe this happens after actually having sex with her, because before that I can still disconnect: I am spending time with a respected friend (I do value women as friends very much), but my desires are projected literally into a different person - or even a sort of object, because it has no real personality. I don't know this person yet, so I can project. Once I know that person, too, the projection is exposed and doesn't work anymore. If at that moment there is nothing ELSE to keep me interested then boredom will set in, and if I don't really love this woman, I can then either chose to continue respecting her as a friend asexually, or to disrespect her as a someone who now can't even offer me physical attraction. This hasn't actually happened to me (the disrespecting part), but I can understand and empathize with these feelings. And do note that I AM narrowing my argument for poignancy. Real people never exactly fit the model, but I believe I'm not far from the truth in many cases, even if they are really a lot more complex.
And that also doesn't mean that there aren't even men out there who really don't respect women (knowingly or not), or really think that women are inferior. Unfortunately this is a sad fact.

I'm saying that even men who actually respect women very much will have problems doing so in every respect (duh), because objectification is such a large part of male sexuality.
Women, on the other hand, are in my experience less prone to "using" projections for sexual attraction, they rather fall victim to them when actually falling in love - at least as far as the acute stupid part of love is concerned. That's the reason they have fewer problems with respect both with or without sex, but rather more problems avoiding assholes.

What I think might work on this board is actually calling out individuals about individual statements: What were you thinking when you wrote that?

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

For the disguise deal some more cosmetic cyber or bioware would be needed to slightly change the frame and posture, and add or subtract a bit of shape in other places.

Check "False Front" in Augmentation, p.68, probably in combination with chameleon skin.

[Sengir]

I've always wondered how men would feel about breasts if the size of their testicles were visible for all to see through clothing and if females chose men as mates based on their size and shape.

It used to be that way (well, at least the display of genitalia;) ). Until the time of the French Revolution men wore extremely tight trousers, made from the finest possible cloth to show their wealth. Before that men wore sometimes enormous codpieces, not as revealing but quite a testament to how men used to show off with their supposed endowment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Regarding the idea of changing such a fundamental aspect of oneself, I'd argue there are far more radical options. Take the Cyberskull for example, having one means you do not have a face any longer -- sure, it might look like your old self, but it remains nothing more than a shell which might as well look totally different. Or an Attention Coprocessor, there is a chip in you which literally tells your brain what to think about and what to ignore, how creepy is that?

[Stahlseele]

Eyes. Windows to the Soul.
Squishy Parts. Out with them.
24/7 live action TV!

[snowRaven]

Regarding the idea of changing such a fundamental aspect of oneself, I'd argue there are far more radical options. Take the Cyberskull for example, having one means you do not have a face any longer -- sure, it might look like your old self, but it remains nothing more than a shell which might as well look totally different. Or an Attention Coprocessor, there is a chip in you which literally tells your brain what to think about and what to ignore, how creepy is that?

Yeah, having one's face ripped out and replaced will be a major thing for most people - just ask anyone who's had their face destroyed and reconstructed.

As for the sensitive issue of cybergenitalia...

Yes, many women out there would doubtless have a hard time replacing their breasts - for whatever reason. The fact remains, though, that there are also many women who would replace them, if it was cheaper and fairly riskfree, and didn't disrupt natural function. The ability to alter breast size at a whim, while not something the majority of women might choose, can be a very valuable ability in the world of shadowrunning though.

Many men are breast-fixated, and easily distracted by prominent breasts - this can serve as a distraction, as a way of hiding (fewer men would remember her face - sad but true), or as a way of getting a social edge over many men (they are more lilely to be embarrased, become lecherous, be distracted, etc). It can also be used to 'escape' warrants or pursuers - if people think they are looking for a woman with really big breasts, or a flatchested one, they are less likely to look closely at those who do not fit that description. This goes for men and women both.

That said, even today it is more or less 'norm' for women to 'use' their breasts (for lack of a better term, I know it sounds crude...) using padded bras, push-ups, flattening sports bras, and revealing necklines, bulky sweaters--even cleavage make-up (rarer, but it exists), to acheive certain effects. It is not really that big a step to 'use' breast implants that can change size, once you've accepted augmetations or if you already were planning to go for implants (for whatever reason)

Penile implants aren't quite as versatile, though every bit as sensitive a concept to many men as breasts implants are to many women. Few guys I know would choose to have it 'chopped off' just to gain a few inches.

As for fixation...there are many people out there, of all genders and all sexual orientations, who have fixations over breast size and penis size. Granted, men in general are more fixated on size regarding both - but I have known many women, gays, lesbians and even a few transgendered with similar fixations, and/or immature sense of humor regarding genitals.

I do think all of the genital augmentations have a very real and solid place in SR, though - the SR world is more open when it comes to sex, and more fixated on it - for good and often for bad. Mutilating and rebuilding your genitals is an excellent concept for the dark, dystopian cyberpunk future that is shadowrun, where humanity is a commodity to be sacrificed for a small edge or reputation.

[bibliophile20]

If nothing else, on the really sleezy/disturbing end, there'll be a demand for those implants for bunraku puppets and joytoys, to allow for further customization for the preference of the customer, and the consent of the puppet or joytoy isn't something the syndicates who would do such things loose much sleep over. So, on that level, these implants do have a place in the setting, if, albeit a very uncomfortable one.

Heck, of the characters in my game, I can't think of any that have gotten these implants voluntarily; all of them are former bunraku puppets rescued by one of my more hooding-happy PCs; I ended up creating "Bunraku Standard" and "Bunraku Deluxe" cyberware suites when I realized that all of these puppets had pretty much the same cyberware, and those savings in cost would be something the syndicates would want... and then also made selling the cyber after freeing the puppets a much more risky--and morally dubious--proposition, which also felt appropriate for the setting.

[Stahlseele]

As i said further upthread, i'd get one.
Not because of size, 2 hands width is quite enough, thank you very much, but because of control mostly.

[Eimi]

Personally, I still think there should be a cyber-vagina on the cosmetic cyberware chart alongside the cyber-penis. I suppose there's any number of reasons it wasn't introduced when the cyber-penis was, or the decades since then, but I can't think of any particularly good ones.

Hell, toss in a cyber-anus, too. Why? I don't know! Why not!

(The most compelling answer would be: if your character is of the 'was a ruined burnt husk of a human torso' bent and got rebuilt with cybertorso included, rebuilt cyber-genitalia is quite in-character to want')

[bibliophile20]

@Eimi: Agreed. And I'd include those for the same Essence costs and Availabilities as the other cyber, and with that, be able to stat a truly transgendered character. (Betan hermaphrodites, anyone? Bel Thorne would make for an excellent runner... and I've already statted out an SR4 Admiral Naismith, just for the lolz...)

[Yerameyahu]

Don't forget you're talking about cyber, though. It's all fake; get bioware if you want real parts.

[Hamsnibit]

Its alot cheaper too.
Breast/Penile implant : 3.000Y
Minor Biomod : 100-2.000Y
Perfetly fully working, no drawbacks and 100% organic if this is what you want.

Btw sex change is 20.000Y and you are fully functionable and 100% real. Former men would even be able to carry children if you throw in a genefix too.
Just to show how advanced the medical possibilites in SR are.
And it goes the other way round.

[Yerameyahu]

Right. So, getting cyber is an actual choice, and in many ways an inferior one. That makes it easier for us to speculate about the actual customers for it.