If you had a small budget and needed to arm a lot of people, What would you do? (IE, what my players likely to do?) Options

[Cheops]

Sorry if it has already been mentioned:

Hack Ares and plant fake shipping and payment orders to a rented warehouse registered to a fake company. Rating*100*2 for the fake business permit and fake security license, 2000 for a low lifestyle warehouse (minus ammo to clear out squatters), and however much time the hacker needs to spend on the credit card fraud. You'll need to burn the fake permits afterwards but whatever.

Alternatively:

Max out all the credit cards available on your fake SINs at WW. Costs you Rating * 1000 but you should be able to get far more return than that for your credit. Just make sure it isn't one of the legbreaking black market credit companies.

As a runner credit fraud is your friend!

[3278]

I keep thinking but forgetting to mention: several people correctly pointed out that there's a price to pay for removing the gang, namely that another gang will simply move into that territory. One solution to this is to decide in advance who is going to fill that void; one method is to find a friendlier neighboring gang and work with them to remove the offender, but as anyone who has studied world history knows, this doesn't always work as you'd like it to.

If our group went this route, we would probably consider co-opting or headhunting the gang, and then simply moving into those leadership positions ourselves, or through trusted proxies. But whether this suited us as characters would determine if we went down that road.

[Yerameyahu]

That's a great point: you always want to get paid (currency, favors, whatever) by *all* sides involved. So you're helping the new gang take over while you're helping the farmers not die. Possibly you're even pretending to help the old gang against the upstarts; be creative.

Now, obviously this will blow up in your faces *later*, when the new puppet gov't goes rogue. But! that's just another fun shadowrun for next time.

[bobbaganoosh]

Sorry if it has already been mentioned:

Hack Ares and plant fake shipping and payment orders to a rented warehouse registered to a fake company. Rating*100*2 for the fake business permit and fake security license, 2000 for a low lifestyle warehouse (minus ammo to clear out squatters), and however much time the hacker needs to spend on the credit card fraud. You'll need to burn the fake permits afterwards but whatever.

Alternatively:

Max out all the credit cards available on your fake SINs at WW. Costs you Rating * 1000 but you should be able to get far more return than that for your credit. Just make sure it isn't one of the legbreaking black market credit companies.

As a runner credit fraud is your friend!

That seems too easy. Why is this the first time I've heard of this in Shadowrun? Where are you getting those numbers?

[thorya]

Probably because the first step is Hack Ares, the second step is leave a giant paper trail, the third step is piss off a lot of squatters that could have connections, the fourth step is have weapons delivered to low lifestyle part of town where they're sure to draw the attention of gangers and other lowlifes that would be happy to back off for a cut or to just take what they think they deserve, and the fifth step is burning your fake SINs, which might be different in other people's games but in ours requires a while to acquire new ones.

[Neraph]

I've tried to learn to shoot a bow and have learned to shoot a rifle. You can train someone to shoot a rifle at a man-sized target at 200 meters with a high chance of success in under a week. Good luck with trying to get them to reliably hit with a bow at the same sized target at 100 meters in a month. It's a much more complex skill and requires a lot more physical strength. In fact, you can tell from a skeleton whether someone was a longbow archer, due to the deformation of the left arms and bone spurs. There was a good reason why England banned all games and amusements for men and boy other then shooting longbows on Sundays, and required churches to provide archery targets.

The great thing about Shadowrun is that it doesn't care about this. In SR, it takes the same amount of time to learn how to use a gun and how to use a bow. Same thing applies for crafting a bow.

As for bows getting the drop on the group - bows, since they are slower to fire than a SA/BF/FA weapon, tend to encourage proper aim. That is my point about it.

[Yerameyahu]

And I'm saying it's a bad point.

[Neraph]

It can be as "bad" as you think it is, it remains a valid point. Mechanically, by the rules of this game, it is an acceptable alternative with the added bonus of targeting the (often) weaker armor value of your target. Orks and trolls would have a definite edge over firearms at that point also.

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't say that. I said, mechanically, bows don't 'encourage' better Aiming. They're just slower. The gun, in whatever fire mode, can shoot just as slowly and just as Aimed, and just as Surprisingly; it's better.

[Neraph]

Yes, but anyone who has played any FPS knows that slower guns actually do encourage precision. Go play Left For Dead with the assault rifle, then change to the hunting rifle - you'll see what I mean. At that point I don't mean mechanically, I mean realistically.

EDIT: And yes, you can be just as Aimed and just as Surprising with other guns, but at that point the other factors come into play that I've mentioned before: same base dmg targeting lower armor, more base dmg in the case of orks and trolls.

[Dakka Dakka]

EDIT: And yes, you can be just as Aimed and just as Surprising with other guns, but at that point the other factors come into play that I've mentioned before: same base dmg targeting lower armor, more base dmg in the case of orks and trolls.

You seem to forget that you have to ready the bow after each shot, meaning you only get one per action phase. Once 7P AP 0 vs impact (at STR4) probably is not as good as twice 7P AP-1 vs ballistic. That is even without using BF or FA. Don't forget the range categories. For a bow short is from 0-STRm, for an assault rifle it's 0-50m. Maximum range for the bow is STR*60m (240m at STR 4) whereas you can reach out and touch someone with an assault rifle in up to 550m.
Additionally RC is relatively cheap and suppressive fire does not care about recoil. Try to do that with a bow.

[Stahlgewitter]

Yes, but anyone who has played any FPS knows that slower guns actually do encourage precision. Go play Left For Dead with the assault rifle, then change to the hunting rifle - you'll see what I mean. At that point I don't mean mechanically, I mean realistically.

EDIT: And yes, you can be just as Aimed and just as Surprising with other guns, but at that point the other factors come into play that I've mentioned before: same base dmg targeting lower armor, more base dmg in the case of orks and trolls.

The problems i see with that is
).
Crafting them will take a long time if they dont have the right materials in stock, also useable bow is hard to craft.
even if they have all the mats it will take a lot of trial and error..
).
Maintanance of Bows,
if u use Wood and string for them they wont be of any use if they get wet.
a rifle will even fire after falling in dirtwater/mud
).
the farmer wont have any skills in Bow if the are not complete back to the basics maniacs,
but will have decent skills in rifle.
99% of all farmer i know are pretty good with rifles. skillrange 2-4 with some even 5
a lot of them are hunters, cause farming and hunting always seems to go hand in hand.
and some of them are even in sportsclubs for rifles, schützenverein
Even if they are not hunter or sportsman, they still will have at least basic skills in rifle for getting rid of all that vermin (magic and mundane).
).
if youre GM is more story orientated like myself or my buddies, u will have a hard time telling him that it takes the same time to learn bow and rifle skills.
we tend to ignore rules in favor of realism and fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

and last but not least
rifles have much longer range then bows, most gangs favor pistols/smg which also have short ranges
so u have a huge advantage when using rifles
cause u can hit them easy, they wont hit u as long as u use cover and with use of a few grenades u can easy nail them down.

So yeah nice idea with bows but rifles>bows also a old/used rifle will be very cheap (without loosing accuracy) and u can always re-fill the ammo and re-use it
this also saves a lot of money.

[Irion]

99% of all farmer i know are pretty good with rifles. skillrange 2-4 with some even 5
a lot of them are hunters, cause farming and hunting always seems to go hand in hand.

Well, 5 would actually make them special forces. And even 4 would be above a marine. So those guys will have 1 or 2 max.
But this the problem of too limited skill range...

What Neraph says is all true. But the "gangers" will not have maxed out armor. And if they have one point more of ballistic, it actually does not matter. The second shot per combat phase takes care of that.
(It would be true, if they had optimized armor with Ballistic 12 and impact only 6.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree, Neraph: IRL, slower encourages aiming. However, as you were eager to point out, we're talking about SR4 mechanics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Again, I wasn't addressing the Impact armor/etc. points. Still, I agree with the points already mentioned: range, speed, crafting feasibility, etc.—advantage, gun.

Are these really 'hunting' farmers? There's a lot of assumptions that we're using, in various ways.

[Warlordtheft]

Well, 5 would actually make them special forces. And even 4 would be above a marine. So those guys will have 1 or 2 max.
But this the problem of too limited skill range...

You don't need to be a sniper to be a marksman, but you need to be a marksmen to be a sniper. Civillians , take for example story of Alvin York: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_York

I would give most farmers a 4 since they shoot the vermin, hunt deer, and have to protect their crops. They also can't wait for the local law enforcement types to show up since the Sheriff could be more than 20 minutes away--so being proficient with a gun is pretty much a given. I am talking US experience here (assuming UCAS is similar). Now that being said just cause you are a civillian doesn't mean you're not with a gun. Realistically (of those trained) you'd probably have mostly 3's with a scattering of 4's, and a couple of 5's maybe a single 6. The 1's and 2's would most likely be those just beginning to learn to shoot.

[Irion]

@Warlordtheft
It is hard to get around it, but the fluff just says otherwise...
Yes, it does not work at all and your "farmers" won't hit anything. True.
And beware of the dancers for they have the higher pools.

[Hida Tsuzua]

One is that 15000Y really isn't enough to cover territory desired. If you bought a Defiance T-250*, some rounds, and an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit for about 1000Y, you could outfit 15 dudes. If you outfit your 15 best shots, you could likely make them roughly equal to a Halloween Street Ganger (likely a good example of the type of foes you'll normally face). That might be enough for patrols and the like, but it sounds like you'll be outnumbered a lot of the time.

My suggestion is figure out how to leverage your starting 15000Y into more gear. Options include raiding some place for gear or making some sort of deal. There may be groups such as military, police, security, or gangers who have weapon stockpiles. Stealing those would be a huge windfall. Who's the best target and how hard this is depends on your setting.

You could also try to negotiate a good deal. Under the table deals with quartermasters throwing out old weapons, organized crime looking to unload hot firearms**, or just funneling firearms acquired during normal shadowrunning are all good potential sources.

A potential good buy is a drone such as a Steel Lynx, Hussar, Air Supply, or LBD-1 with obvious armor (rating 12-16). It's quite possible to make a drone that's flat out immune to gangers. Put on a gun and you could mow down a huge number of people with your kill-bot. If flying is feasible, it'll be a great support vehicle since it can fly where needed quickly. You can keep it in autonomous mode, have a guy command rig it with optimized command 6 program, or jump in (especially if hacking is a worry though that's unlikely).

The flaw is that a drone good enough to do this is likely going to cost at least 10,000Y. One drone can't hold down an area of this size. However, I would seriously consider it after outfitting the 20th man. That gives you the ability to deal with multiple threats at once and have stuff like partols. You'll also have a huge unstoppable lynchpin for big fights.

*- The best gun to buy will depend on your men's skills. If they're good at something, buy them something cheap for that skill. If they have their own guns, that's even better.

**- Especially since I think the Plastic Jungles are a Z-Zone under a farmer's bed in the middle of a lawless zone is a great place to hide a murder weapon.

[Stahlgewitter]

Well
for me its ok to give a farmer rifle up to 5, cause skill only says how good are u at something but not what u can really do with that skill.
a farmer/sportsman with 5 is really good with his rifle, but he surly lacks in attributes so he wont hit an moving target as easy as a sniper would.
Also he is not a professional and doesnt get the prof rating like a sniper would (dunno if this is only SR3 but i still use the rule and add up to 4 dice)
And also he isnt used to live or death combat, so he will make mistakes and or doesnt shoot the right target in the right moment.

[Stahlgewitter]

@Money
for more money the best thing would be to find a fixer with Soyfood allergies
he surely will be glad to outfit youre farmers for natural and cheap food or free food.

call it Weapons for Food ^^

[Irion]

@Stahlgewitter
Well, I guss this is SR3.
In SR4 Rifle 4 means you are able to use this skill in combat.

I agree that it is not good the way it is, but this are the rules. Shadowrun is quite weak on the simulation side... But everything has ups and downs.
(You could introduce "feats" which tell you are able to use your skills in combat without malus.)
So a guy who is quite a good shot would have rifle 4 but if he is thrown into a combat situation he would be much worse than the marine with rifle 3 and "battle hardend III".
The civilian would take a penalty of, lets say, two dice and the marine even gets a bonus of one.

But this would be much more micro management.
(If you want to play a good shot out of combat, ask your GM for a spezialisation (out of combat))

[Stahlgewitter]

@Stahlgewitter
Well, I guss this is SR3.
In SR4 Rifle 4 means you are able to use this skill in combat.

I agree that it is not good the way it is, but this are the rules. Shadowrun is quite weak on the simulation side... But everything has ups and downs.
(You could introduce "feats" which tell you are able to use your skills in combat without malus.)
So a guy who is quite a good shot would have rifle 4 but if he is thrown into a combat situation he would be much worse than the marine with rifle 3 and "battle hardend III".
The civilian would take a penalty of, lets say, two dice and the marine even gets a bonus of one.

But this would be much more micro management.
(If you want to play a good shot out of combat, ask your GM for a spezialisation (out of combat))

thx for the suggestion but nah
i prefere to ignore the rules ^^ and simply add 1-4 dice to my professionells
this way the normal people are not that weak also and my players can continue to power-game ^^

also i cant stand feats, played to much d&d ^^

[ShadowDragon8685]

Hrm. I may have been lowballing the expectations of preexisting armaments - these are, after all, the plastic jungles, in a Z-Zone. They'd need shotguns and long rifles, if only to keep the devil rats in check (though in fairness, big loyal dogs go a long way in also keeping the devil rats in check.) So, there is that, but long rifles won't do a whole hell of a lot against gangers in close quarters.

[Kliko]

Hrm. I may have been lowballing the expectations of preexisting armaments - these are, after all, the plastic jungles, in a Z-Zone. They'd need shotguns and long rifles, if only to keep the devil rats in check (though in fairness, big loyal dogs go a long way in also keeping the devil rats in check.) So, there is that, but long rifles won't do a whole hell of a lot against gangers in close quarters.

So this leaves Shotguns (Defiance-T250) and dogs... what does a hellhound cost these days?

[Cheops]

That seems too easy. Why is this the first time I've heard of this in Shadowrun? Where are you getting those numbers?

Pages 266 and 268 for rules on credit and using it to cover lifestyles. Not as explicit as previous editions but the numbers are there. A high lifestyle should be able to get you about 52.5K (3*10k+3*5K+3*2K+3*500) in credit before the credit card company comes knocking. Plus it takes them a couple of months before they really escalate things.

I thought stealing stuff physically or through the Matrix was pretty SOP for SR. Guess it is just my table. Why pay your hard-earned money to finish a run when stuff is available for "free"?

(PS: before the panty-waists start accusing me of being "too lenient" I have killed/arrested/fucked with numerous runners over the years for these hijinks)

[Warlordtheft]

@Warlordtheft
It is hard to get around it, but the fluff just says otherwise...
Yes, it does not work at all and your "farmers" won't hit anything. True.
And beware of the dancers for they have the higher pools.

I'm paraphrasing the description of skill levels (I'm sure someone can quote it-AFB)

1-Which way of the gun is up (I saw it on TV and learned how to shoot in 30 seconds).
2-Some training, been to the shooting range a couple of times.
3-Proficient, go to the range on a semiregular basis
4-Veteren, (A well trained soldier or police swat member)
5-Master, (A sniper)
6+ One of the best of the best, (Doc Holiday, Wild Bill Hickock, etc, etc)

This is why to me, most people in the 1 to 2 range don't stay there long as they are in the middle of training to be proficient (aka 3). Those scattering of 4's are people that are well versed in shooting and may have had previous experience in the military, a local LEO, or shooting it out with a gang one time too many. The 5's would be rare, but there would be a few (like 2 or 3 IMHO out of a population of 100 shooters there is a chance in someones background that they got this good), a 6 is doubtful but plausible (possible NPC to be statted).