If you had a small budget and needed to arm a lot of people, What would you do? (IE, what my players likely to do?) Options

[Neraph]

The problems i see with that is
).
Crafting them will take a long time if they dont have the right materials in stock, also useable bow is hard to craft.
even if they have all the mats it will take a lot of trial and error..
).
Maintanance of Bows,
if u use Wood and string for them they wont be of any use if they get wet.
a rifle will even fire after falling in dirtwater/mud
).
the farmer wont have any skills in Bow if the are not complete back to the basics maniacs,
but will have decent skills in rifle.
99% of all farmer i know are pretty good with rifles. skillrange 2-4 with some even 5
a lot of them are hunters, cause farming and hunting always seems to go hand in hand.
and some of them are even in sportsclubs for rifles, schützenverein
Even if they are not hunter or sportsman, they still will have at least basic skills in rifle for getting rid of all that vermin (magic and mundane).
).
if youre GM is more story orientated like myself or my buddies, u will have a hard time telling him that it takes the same time to learn bow and rifle skills.
we tend to ignore rules in favor of realism and fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

and last but not least
rifles have much longer range then bows, most gangs favor pistols/smg which also have short ranges
so u have a huge advantage when using rifles
cause u can hit them easy, they wont hit u as long as u use cover and with use of a few grenades u can easy nail them down.

So yeah nice idea with bows but rifles>bows also a old/used rifle will be very cheap (without loosing accuracy) and u can always re-fill the ammo and re-use it
this also saves a lot of money.

...

1) You can make a bow in just a few days. That's what the Armorer 'softs and kits were for. I myself made a bow in about four days and it lasted about four years. It was my first time making a bow with no prior experience.

2) Aren't they in greenhouses? That pretty much removes them from getting too wet if they don't want them to be. And they'd probably be using nylon strings.

3 & 4)

i prefere to ignore the rules ...

This is why I do not pay attention to you.

5) If you check, bows still out-range pistols and smgs. Not by as much as a rifle, but they still do. Also, what prevents you from reloading a bow? Your closing argument is that rifles can be reloaded... does that mean bows can't be?

One is that 15000Y really isn't enough to cover territory desired.

This is exactly why I suggested what I did. You get the most bang for your buck in making sure they can make their own weapons; and with what they have available, that's bows.

And last: the point was to discourage attackers, not murder them all in cold blood. Yes, you can get two shots with 6P -1 AP from assault rifles and 7P -1 AP from sports rifles, but one shot at 6P targetting their weaker armor is more likely to do the job - namely, making you an unpalatable target. The whole point of giving them the ability to craft their own bows was to provide them with potentially unlimited weapons and ammo, instead of moderately equipping fifteen or fewer people with a couple handful of shots each.

[Irion]

@Neraph
The bows in shadowrun are not normal "wood" bows, as far as I can tell. Crafting is not that easy...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Neraph
The bows in shadowrun are not normal "wood" bows, as far as I can tell. Crafting is not that easy...

Define Normal Wood.
I had a wooden Bow (60 lb) that was just as potent as my metallic one (Variable Compound 55-70 lb). It does not have to be the best in the world to do its job.

Crafting a bow is not all that hard. I used to do it when I was younger. Crossbows are not all that hard to make either, especially if you are using Leaf Springs form a Truck. They may not last forever (though the crossbow might), but they will work. Not like you are making rating 8+ bows after all. A Rating 3-4 Bow will work just fine in this regard. Either option will work for what Neraph suggested.

[Yerameyahu]

Not 'normal wood' bows. Normal 'wood' bows; as opposed to metal/composite ones. And assuming the farm happens to have usable wood for them.

[Irion]

First of all, sorry to cause this kind of confusion. I meant (like yerameyahu suggested) wood opposed to metal.
The description of the Shadowrun bows talks about wheels and several strings, which does not connect to bows made out of wood.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

First of all, sorry to cause this kind of confusion. I meant (like yerameyahu suggested) wood opposed to metal.
The description of the Shadowrun bows talks about wheels and several strings, which does not connect to bows made out of wood.

Why? My Wood Bow was a compound bow with Wheels and Strings.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not 'normal wood' bows. Normal 'wood' bows; as opposed to metal/composite ones. And assuming the farm happens to have usable wood for them.

That is an assumption, to be sure. Not all wood is viable for Bows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlgewitter]

I'm paraphrasing the description of skill levels (I'm sure someone can quote it-AFB)

1-Which way of the gun is up (I saw it on TV and learned how to shoot in 30 seconds).
2-Some training, been to the shooting range a couple of times.
3-Proficient, go to the range on a semiregular basis
4-Veteren, (A well trained soldier or police swat member)
5-Master, (A sniper)
6+ One of the best of the best, (Doc Holiday, Wild Bill Hickock, etc, etc)

This is why to me, most people in the 1 to 2 range don't stay there long as they are in the middle of training to be proficient (aka 3). Those scattering of 4's are people that are well versed in shooting and may have had previous experience in the military, a local LEO, or shooting it out with a gang one time too many. The 5's would be rare, but there would be a few (like 2 or 3 IMHO out of a population of 100 shooters there is a chance in someones background that they got this good), a 6 is doubtful but plausible (possible NPC to be statted).

1-Which way of the gun is up (I saw it on TV and learned how to shoot in 30 seconds).

2-Some training, been to the shooting range a couple of times.
sounds like a 7 year old boy to me but i guess some of us dont get training this early
or everyone that has made his 6months military service in western Europe

3-Proficient, go to the range on a semiregular basis
seems like someone who is hunting from a few months to a few years

4-Veteren, (A well trained soldier or police swat member)
so could we say someone who has at least 10years of training with his weapon?
if yes, welcome you're average Hunter.

5-Master, (A sniper)
some of the older hunter could be easily that good, 40years+ of training doesn't make u bad i guess
yes not every old hunter will be that good, cause eyes are getting weaker, muscles and concentration will go down.
But still that would leave us with about 1 in 10 old hunters

6+ One of the best of the best, (Doc Holiday, Wild Bill Hickock, etc, etc)
just one thing, u dont have to be famous to be that good.


@ignoring rules
every good GM does that, cause its about the story and not about + or - 1 dice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

Lets do this again, but this time with the real table:
Unaware:Never seen a gun before.
0:Point the barrel, pull the trigger.
1:Shot some tin cans with a BB gun a few times.
2:Trainee in police academy or military boot camp.
3:Regular beat cop or military grunt.
4:Riot control cop, combat veteran, superior regular force (Marines, Airborne)
5:SWAT team, elite military (Rangers, Special Forces)
6:Individual superstars amongst elite forces. Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside, Hatchetman, Matador
7:“Wild Bill” Hickock, James Bond, Thunder Tyee

And yes, your "hunter" could go up to 4. But even a guy who has been hunting for 40 years will probably not have a skill of 5. After the fluff.

[Yerameyahu]

I still say it's unreasonable to easily craft a *modern* 2070-style bow (i.e., using the stats and ratings from the book) entirely out of wood. So, they'll still need to acquire specialized bow parts, even if they happen to have perfectly suitable wood lying around. Besides, I was under the impression that SR4 basically did not include specific build-from-pre-scratch. Armorer doesn't explicitly allow you to craft a new bow from a pile of wood. If you had a build-a-bow kit, you could make a B/R test to *assemble* it. Possibly you could stat up a series of tests to craft those components ('woodworking', not Armorer?).

In broad terms, it *is* a good idea for long term armament given minimal retail transactions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I still say it's unreasonable to easily craft a *modern* 2070-style bow (i.e., using the stats and ratings from the book) entirely out of wood. So, they'll still need to acquire specialized bow parts, even if they happen to have perfectly suitable wood lying around. Besides, I was under the impression that SR4 basically did not include specific build-from-pre-scratch. Armorer doesn't explicitly allow you to craft a new bow from a pile of wood. If you had a build-a-bow kit, you could make a B/R test to *assemble* it. Possibly you could stat up a series of tests to craft those components ('woodworking', not Armorer?).

In broad terms, it *is* a good idea for long term armament given minimal retail transactions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Modern or Ancient makes no real difference. Old English Longbows are just as powerful (if not more so) as some of our Modern Bows are today. It has to do with the Draw Weight, more than the technology behind it. Yes, Modern Bows can have a greater Draw weight, within reason, but the difference between the damage a 50 lb Recurve bow puts out and the Damage a 50lb Compound bow puts out is almost nonexistent. Each is shooting at 50 lbs draw weight. The big difference is that the compound bow is easier to draw, becuase it has a break point at which it gets easier, whereas the recurve does not. I have a really hard time shooting a 70 lb, recurve bow, because I just cannot pull the draw to my cheek. I hunt with that draw weight on my Compound bow.

As for the Creating rules... Yeah, there really are none. But you can still do it, within reason. Some things take a lot of resources. My uncle had a full machine shop, complete with automated milling machines and the works. He used it to craft parts for Colt as a sub-contractor (I would classify that as a facility in Shadowrun, not a shop, as the machines he had were in the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy and maintain, but *shrug*). However, It takes almost NO technology to make a bow, especially if you opt for Straight or Recurve Bows rather than Compound Bows. I would likely allow a group of people to do so in this situation, BECAUSE it is so easy to do. But yes, I would likely use a "Wooodworking or Bowyer/Fletcher" skill instead of Armorer (Though that IS the correct skill by RAW). It would make the most sense.

It is the best solution, given the amount of money that is being talked about.

[Warlordtheft]

@Irion(thanks for the table I'll ad my interpretation to what this means civillian wise)

Lets do this again, but this time with the real table:
Unaware:Never seen a gun before.
0:Point the barrel, pull the trigger.
1:Shot some tin cans with a BB gun a few times. (civillian)
2:Trainee in police academy or military boot camp. (daddy took me to the range a couple of times)
3:Regular beat cop or military grunt. (shoots on a semi-regular basis)
4:Riot control cop, combat veteran, superior regular force (has been shooting on a regular basis for a few years)
5:SWAT team, elite military (that guy at the gun range that knows how to adjust his rifle, optimize the ballistics with his hand loaded ammo, and can shoot 2" groups)
6:Individual superstars amongst elite forces. Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside, Hatchetman, Matador (you know that guy at the range, yeah him, he gets upset when his 10 shot groups more than 1" apart--damned perfectionist)

And yes, your "hunter" could go up to 4. But even a guy who has been hunting for 40 years will probably not have a skill of 5. After the fluff.

Yes but probably, and never are two different qualifiers. Probably not, but is plausible for a 6, a 7 is 99.999% unlikely and would be miracle territory.

[CanRay]

7: Gets upset when his 10-shot groups don't go through the same hole. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Irion]

@Warlordtheft
But everything(after 1) one step down and you get close.
Daddy taking you to the range is not two.

[Modular Man]

Just caught up with the thread, and... Oh boy, there goes the "Sherwood Forest" cliché (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Aside from that I like the idea of arming everyone with a bow, but they may likely not be trained.

Using the startup money to get more guns would be the way I'd try to figure it out (if not shooting and plundering the offending gang right away). Remember, the real key problem for runners in making cash out of stolen goods is to find a way to sell a great mass of those stolen goods without great cuts in the margin to please a fixer or without upsetting current market balance in the area. Giving it away to a bunch of farmers in the Barrens, though, will cut that out. Plus, you may call in for a favor later for such extraordinary effort. It's always nice to have a few well-armed friends in a lonely place. It's not always about the money (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

According to Wikipedia the old british Sten Gun was very cheap in production costs and easy to assemble (or at least cheap copies were). That may be a hint, though it is terribly outdated in the 2070s. That was my third take on this whole idea...

[Warlordtheft]

@Warlordtheft
But everything(after 1) one step down and you get close.
Daddy taking you to the range is not two.

Was for me.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I'd rate myself a 3, but only because I don't get out to shoot that much.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Honestly, I can't get that worried about the relative skill level. You're likely only going to be able to arm 30 or so people. Thus you'll outfit the top 15% of your population of 200. Those people ought to have stats* roughly equivalent or better to a street ganger from the books. That's going to be 6+ dice. That's enough to hit motionless targets 92% of the time and hit gangers (reaction 3-4) more often than not. They're nothing compared to a shadowrunner, but should be enough to deal with gangers and the odd solo paracritter.

Ideally you'll outfit them with laser sights or smartlinks for more dice as well. A centralized tacnet would be amazing, but would require a large upfront investment. You'll want a decent cluster for the hub, sensor channels for everyone, and sat uplinks for everyone's commlink.

*- I assume the most common setup is agility 4 + pistols or longarms 2, but maybe you'll luck out and find an agility 5 + automatics (assault rifles) 4(6) ex-military badass as well.

[Draco18s]

Put K-10 into the other guys' drinks. Then get the hell out of dodge.

[Dakka Dakka]

Capsule round+K10+Sniper Rifle on a drone=Hilarious

You already are out of Dodge.

[The Jake]

And last: the point was to discourage attackers, not murder them all in cold blood. Yes, you can get two shots with 6P -1 AP from assault rifles and 7P -1 AP from sports rifles, but one shot at 6P targetting their weaker armor is more likely to do the job - namely, making you an unpalatable target. The whole point of giving them the ability to craft their own bows was to provide them with potentially unlimited weapons and ammo, instead of moderately equipping fifteen or fewer people with a couple handful of shots each.

This. Great post. And you will deter vampires too!

- J.

[Yerameyahu]

I just don't agree. Even assuming the whole bow-making scheme works perfectly, I see gangers only being more annoyed by such a strange defense. They *do* have guns, and they'll use them to kill, not just 'discourage'. If anything, knowing their enemy is so weak would embolden them (or others).

[The Jake]

I just don't agree. Even assuming the whole bow-making scheme works perfectly, I see gangers only being more annoyed by such a strange defense. They *do* have guns, and they'll use them to kill, not just 'discourage'. If anything, knowing their enemy is so weak would embolden them (or others).

You wouldn't say that to Rambo!

PS - the drone/k10 idea is a treat Dakka Dakka. I will use that one.

- J.

[Yerameyahu]

That's true. Freaking Rambo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

That's true. Freaking Rambo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

So what this thread comes down to is you need an army of muscular ninja-like spec ops types who hide in the woods and knife everyone.

And now for your moment of Zen: http://youtu.be/BANS3gKTx_w

[The Jake]

I can't believe after earlier editions people would knock the bow of the freaking bow. Troll Bow Adepts anyone?

- J.