If you had a small budget and needed to arm a lot of people, What would you do? (IE, what my players likely to do?) Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not talking about effectiveness. Just saying that the bow deserves respect! Admittedly they're not as awesome as they once were - but they are still great.

- J.

Absolutely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Man.

No one asked about Bear Town.

[kzt]

No one asked about Bear Town.

Doesn't that violate the first rule of Bear Town? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[3278]

The money would also be best spent as Stahl points out -- get them tool kits. The kits can be used to make crude weapons and reinforce the defenses and when not under threat they can be used to repair/improve assets and infrastructure.

Buying weapons is probably the worst thing you can do in these circumstances.

How quickly would you suppose weapons like this could be built, and what sort of weapons would you be expecting to produce with the tool kits?

[Draco18s]

Doesn't that violate the first rule of Bear Town? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Haha, no.

Bear Town is the name of a story. Particularly involving a mage farmer.

[Neraph]

The major (mechanical) downside of bows is the farmers aren't likely to have any skill in it.

That's why my list included tutorsofts also.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How quickly would you suppose weapons like this could be built, and what sort of weapons would you be expecting to produce with the tool kits?

When I was 15, I created a functional Pistol (black powder), from scratch, in the span of about 12 Hours, over 2 days. A Colt 1911 would have taken me about the same amount of time, considering I had the machines available. However, it was not using what I would call a KIT either (Though it was called a Shop, the machinery was of a cost that they really belonged in a Facility). Of course, it was only a 2 man shop, so maybe that is accurate. *shrug*

As for a Bow and some arrows? Not too long, less than a week (Depending upon Draw Weight and material availability), if you have the right tools available, and the right training.

[Yerameyahu]

There are sort of mechanics for this in SR4, though, so we can't consult RL. Hehe.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There are sort of mechanics for this in SR4, though, so we can't consult RL. Hehe.

True...
Should not take all that long for a Bow, though, I would think. Rating (or Rating x2) as a Threshold, Days as an Increment?

[kzt]

How quickly would you suppose weapons like this could be built, and what sort of weapons would you be expecting to produce with the tool kits?

A milling machine and a drill press can build milled AK-47 and AR-15 receivers. There are actually plans you can download to program a low cost computer controlled milling machine so it will automatically do it for you.

The modern AK-47/74 receiver is a sheet of thin steel that is cut to shape and folded together, then heat treated, drilled, and riveted to the rest of the parts.

Barrels are not so easy, particularly rifled barrels, but if you have a real machine shop you can build the machine to do the rifling, and for close range (like tens of meters) you don't need rifling to be a serious threat.

[Hida Tsuzua]

There are sort of mechanics for this in SR4, though, so we can't consult RL. Hehe.

Really it's all so dependent on GM arbitration that it might as well be an "Argue with the GM" test. I think a shop, a threshold 8 (complex item), 6 hours Armorer test should yield an AK-97 at half cost. I might see the argument that an AK-97 is an basic item and thus threshold 4, but there's really no guidelines.

One big thing for defense is going to rapid deployment. It doesn't really matter if you have 5 or 500 bowmen/gunmen/whatever if they're not going to get help the target in time. If you can prove that regardless of where they hit you can show up with a competent force before they can get away, people are going to skip over you.

Thus communication is key. One thing might just be make sure everyone has a commlink. That way they can call for help fairly quickly. Helmets with trodes in them are extremely cheap and double as armor. Biomonitors are pricey at 300Y a pop, but they help with medicine as well as provide a warning in case someone get ambushed.

Then it's just a matter of getting whatever response force you have there. For this, I can see two ways. One is to have groups of "first responders" spread around that can response to calls for help. Ideally they can just be on call and grab their gear and go. Another would be some sort of drone response. They're typically faster than metahumans though if you want a crawler or aerial drone will depend on how thick the jungle is. There's a decent amount of good cheap drones out there to choose from.

[Yerameyahu]

If it's a 2070-modern bow, I think it's reasonable that's a relatively complicated item. But yeah, that's all negotiation with the GM because the Build/Repair rules are so vague.

[3278]

However, it was not using what I would call a KIT either (Though it was called a Shop, the machinery was of a cost that they really belonged in a Facility). Of course, it was only a 2 man shop, so maybe that is accurate. *shrug*

A milling machine and a drill press can build milled AK-47 and AR-15 receivers.

Then we have clearly established what I think is possibly the most contentiously-debated thesis ever presented on the internet: using a shop or facility, it is possible to build a firearm. I know that seems incredible - I had to be told several times before I would believe it myself, and sometimes I still awaken without the knowledge, and for a moment in the night the world is right again, until it all comes crashing down on me once more - but I think we all have to accept the truth, and move on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But no, seriously, that wasn't at all the question I asked, but nice talkin' with you fellas.

[kzt]

But no, seriously, that wasn't at all the question I asked, but nice talkin' with you fellas.

Your question was boring, so we decided to answer a better question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[nezumi]

Linked to that, and the flamethrower question, what about nerve gas? Nerve gas is more of a 'show of force has failed and we're under attack' option, but still ... They have a ton of ingredients, with their access to fertilizers, herbicides, etc. They just need a chemist to mix it, and a deployment method. If we're talking about pure 'kill for the dollar' value, nerve gas is the way to go.

Some napalm would be more ideal for that show of force, though. And that doesn't need to be targeted so much. Just have a few massive balls of fire go up on the ridge as the gangers come over it and they'll at least be reconsidering their plan.

[Modular Man]

Another idea would be to tip those arrows in some plant toxin, e.g. atropine. Those are greenhouses, after all.

[Yerameyahu]

Gangers aren't as dumb and timid as all that. Surely they've heard of the Halloweeners, etc. And these options are very creative, but barely have rules for them, so the GM is basically making it all up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Like I said, if you're assuming MacGuyver…

[kzt]

Linked to that, and the flamethrower question, what about nerve gas? Nerve gas is more of a 'show of force has failed and we're under attack' option, but still ... They have a ton of ingredients, with their access to fertilizers, herbicides, etc. They just need a chemist to mix it, and a deployment method. If we're talking about pure 'kill for the dollar' value, nerve gas is the way to go.

It's not that easy to make. Otherwise 3rd world countries wouldn't need to pay billions to French and German companies to supply the equipment and build the plants to make it. The chemicals needed are mostly only used in making nerve agents (like methylphosphonyl difluoride) and people out shopping for them or precursors are likely to get visits from people with sealed military grade armor and attack helicopters. The process also tends to produce a lot of toxic by-products, many process are corrosive as hell and storing chemicals where the lethal dose is in micrograms is not something that can be casually done.

If they have the resources to design and build an industrial chemical complex sufficient to do this they can also design and build belt-fed machinesguns and ammunition in bulk.

[Cheops]

How quickly would you suppose weapons like this could be built, and what sort of weapons would you be expecting to produce with the tool kits?

Scrap metal spears and swords. A ganger climbing a wall can't be using his guns. Stick him with the pointy end as he comes over the top.
If you want to get really high-tech, mortars and rocket tubes are easy to make. After that you just need a chemist to make chems and someone with demolitions to make the mortar bombs and rockets.

The idea is to make things difficult for people to come and steal your shit without escalating hostilities. No one wants your crappy ass spears and swords. They'll leave you alone.
On the other hand if they know you are stockpiling modern weapons behind those walls of yours they will be more interested in coming to take them.

[3278]

Scrap metal spears and swords. A ganger climbing a wall can't be using his guns. Stick him with the pointy end as he comes over the top.

So you're thinking some pretty serious fortifications, then. That brings up another point I think was discussed earlier: if this perimeter is really really big, the kinds of fortifications needed are going to be pretty difficult. But that, too, depends on how well-equipped the gang is, how determined they are, and what it is they think they have to gain by harassing these people.

I like the idea that the gang is actually in the right, and they're all prepared to fight to the death to accomplish some goal the seemingly peaceful employers [or at least their secretive leadership] don't want them to. But I have a bad habit of just constantly making everything more complicated.

On the other hand if they know you are stockpiling modern weapons behind those walls of yours they will be more interested in coming to take them.

There's a really important point, here: if you start deploying high-end solutions like shadowrunners tend to bring - spirits, technology, advanced tactics and weaponry - at some point the gang might start wondering what it is that's so valuable, and bring more to bear. Definitely something to watch for.

[Hida Tsuzua]

There's a really important point, here: if you start deploying high-end solutions like shadowrunners tend to bring - spirits, technology, advanced tactics and weaponry - at some point the gang might start wondering what it is that's so valuable, and bring more to bear. Definitely something to watch for.

However, things we consider "high-end" aren't in the SR universe. Spirits just means they have a caster. With magical characters being 1% of the population, it's not impossible that a settlement of 200 has a magician. Drones aren't that expensive, and security drones can show up part of a low or middle class security setup. Assault rifles aren't that big of a deal even nowadays (well in the purely lawless areas of today's world that models places like the Plastic Jungle).

[kzt]

So you're thinking some pretty serious fortifications, then. That brings up another point I think was discussed earlier: if this perimeter is really really big, the kinds of fortifications needed are going to be pretty difficult. But that, too, depends on how well-equipped the gang is, how determined they are, and what it is they think they have to gain by harassing these people.

It will be astonishingly difficult to do without a LOT of money or heavy construction equipment. For example, chain link is in the $10 per linear foot range iirc, A 10 foot high block wall is something like $100 per linear foot, and that won't stop rifle fire. How many KM of perimeter do they have?

There's a really important point, here: if you start deploying high-end solutions like shadowrunners tend to bring - spirits, technology, advanced tactics and weaponry - at some point the gang might start wondering what it is that's so valuable, and bring more to bear. Definitely something to watch for.

There are lots of goodies in the average police station too. Despite this gangs rarely assault the KE or LS precinct houses. You have to present a creditable threat to people who want to mess with you to deter them.

[KarmaInferno]

It will be astonishingly difficult to do without a LOT of money or heavy construction equipment. For example, chain link is in the $10 per linear foot range iirc, A 10 foot high block wall is something like $100 per linear foot, and that won't stop rifle fire. How many KM of perimeter do they have?

Barrier Foam. 30 nuyen makes a 2 meter tall, five meter long wall a meter thick. And it deploys in minutes.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




-k

[Draco18s]

And here I was thinking I'd have to bring up Pillars of the Earth. A bunch of mud farmers and an architect built a 10 foot high stone wall in 2 days. Held off a contingent of cavalry.

[kzt]

And here I was thinking I'd have to bring up Pillars of the Earth. A bunch of mud farmers and an architect built a 10 foot high stone wall in 2 days. Held off a contingent of cavalry.

Skilled masons plus assistants can build walls faster then you might think, if the materials are at hand. Multiple km of walls that are over 8 feet tall are not going to be built in 2 days, or two weeks. You are talking about something akin to the walls around major cities, which took large teams years.