If you had a small budget and needed to arm a lot of people, What would you do? (IE, what my players likely to do?) Options

[Kliko]

Invest in surveillance and communications.

Once a marauding/intruding gang is spotted, swat them with spirits/magic.

[kzt]

Edit: And that's just the people actually tending the crops. Add in all the support they need, plus the businesses that will have grown up around the farms, and you can increase my estimates by 50% to 100%. Basically, there's no way a 20-person gang is a serious threat to these people.

An unarmed group of pacifist any size is at the mercy of an armed group of any size. Pacifists are parasites who depend on the actions of the armed people (who they despise) to keep them safe.

[kzt]

I wasn't making fun of your group. I was making a reference to the movie Seven Samurai. It has a very similar plot to this adventure.

I think the players need to paint the town red ...

[kzt]

First off,
Killing the Gangs isnt really an option. Even if it looks like one.
U kill them and 2weeks later theres a new one, but the farmers dont have any money left.
So equip them and prepare em or bargain with the gangs seem to me as the only options.

There are various forms of negotiation.
Stakes with the heads of the last group of people to attack with a sign that says "if you cross this fence you will die" is a form of negotiation.

[Irion]

@kzt
Well, not so true in a world of magic...
I guess we had it here with "why you should not storm a church in Shadowrun"....

[Yerameyahu]

Or maybe armed people are parasites who depend on the farmers? Snrk.

[Stahlgewitter]

There are various forms of negotiation.
Stakes with the heads of the last group of people to attack with a sign that says "if you cross this fence you will die" is a form of negotiation.

Thats nowhere an form of negotiation.
Thats an open invitation for every gang in a 100miles radius to stop by, say fucking hello and "cross that fence" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kzt]

Thats nowhere an form of negotiation.
Thats an open invitation for every gang in a 100miles radius to stop by, say fucking hello and "cross that fence" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Then you get more stakes. ...

[Irion]

Committing open atrocities is not a good idea, unless you want to stick around. (Aka force the farmers to pay you every day for protection.)

It is quite hard to find a way, which forces said gang to stand down and prevents other gangs from stepping up, without wasting huge amounts of time or resources...

[Yerameyahu]

Committing open atrocities is not a good idea, unless you want to stick around. (Aka force the farmers to pay you every day for protection.)

But… isn't this your plan all along? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're not good guys, you're shadowrunners. So you trick the farmers into needing you forever, by converting their moderate enemies into severe and implacable ones. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And then Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

[kzt]

If you kill enough people who mess with you the word will get around and the number of people who are willing to mess with you will go down significantly over time.

[Yerameyahu]

No, I agree with the others: it'll only go up. Plus, of course, the spiritual transformation of their little farming community into a warrior nation; pathos. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlgewitter]

Then you get more stakes. ...

Nope, no matter how good in combat u are (or think u are) sooner or later u get a visit from A.R. Man
*sod*, didnt want to be the one who tells ya that A.R. doesn't stand for Augmented Reality, it stands for Ass Rape :O
Cause sooner or in case of Dragons later everyone looses a battle and to be at the Mercy of a Gang isnt as funny as u might think

[Stahlgewitter]

error 906 doublepost

[Yerameyahu]

Worst superhero ever. I think Steven Lynch invented him? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kzt]

You know the guy who runs the Mafia in your city has a lot good stuff in his house. How often people break is to steal it? Well, pretty much never. Because everyone knows that if you do that you will be dead. Do all the gangs from miles away line up so they can demonstrate how macho they are by breaking in?

[Stahlgewitter]

Worst superhero ever. I think Steven Lynch invented him? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

hmm i dont get it, so whos steven lynch? ^^

A.R. Man is from Cyanide&Happiness a Webcomic
http://www.explosm.net
feel free to delete the link if it isnt allowed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

The Mafia is a massive criminal organization, not some farmers. Besides, literature and film are full of examples of people doing exactly that, as well as the whole 'try the fastest gun/greatest swordsman' trope.

Ha, I'd forgotten that one, Stahlgewitter. Steven Lynch is a comedy singer, he did a similar joke.

[kzt]

The Mafia is a massive criminal organization, not some farmers. Besides, literature and film are full of examples of people doing exactly that, as well as the whole 'try the fastest gun/greatest swordsman' trope.

Massive? Only in movies. In Chicago, with 2.3 million people, there were something like 70 made members in 1997, running 3 crews. There were 50,000 members of the Gangster Disciples in Chicago at that same time.

[Tanegar]

An unarmed group of pacifist any size is at the mercy of an armed group of any size. Pacifists are parasites who depend on the actions of the armed people (who they despise) to keep them safe.

Thank you for bringing RL politics into a thread about a run. *facepalm*

Particularly when we haven't even established that anyone in the Jungles is a pacifist.

[Yerameyahu]

Massive as in multi-city, and in comparison to *the farmers*. But the point isn't the size, it's the character; they're fellow criminals, not upstart prey.

[Irion]

And the mafia has heads on pikes in fron of their houses...Did not think so.

The mafia is a criminal organisation. You may guess three times what would happen if they overstep too much...


This "If you kill enough people who mess with you the word will get around and the number of people who are willing to mess with you will go down significantly over time. " is only true in a very small number of cases.

What happens if you start killing everybody messing with you in your hometown?
There will be the police willing to mess with you! And if you kill several officers, they won't stop messing with you.

This is only "true" if you make the price needed to pay to bring you down higher than the benefit of bringing you down. (Count Dracula is a finde historical example of this kind of trick. It is less about the "deaths or brutallity" it is more about beeing percived stronger than you are and additional to that as routhless)

But it only works, if the world around you is able to ignore you. Your sphere of dominance is far off traderoutes and important ressources.
The second this changes, they will have an interest in messing with you. And at this point, they will rally all the other people to start messing with you. And if you have the record of a rabbit dog...

[Yerameyahu]

Like this one: http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/9000/...it-dog-9221.jpg

[kzt]

There is no need for the Don to put the head of a burglar on a spike. Everyone in the criminal community knows what happened to him, even if the body is never found.

You are in the barrens. There are no police. There are no services. You options are to hide, submit or fight.

The can't hide, as they occupy and depend on a very obvious piece of terrain.

They have the option of surrendering to the gang and depending on the gang to protect them from others. They have chosen to not do that.

The other option, the one they have chosen, is to use violence or the threat of violence as part of their self-help process, as they have no judicial remedy. So the next set of questions that have to be answered are setting the scope for the use of violence and to determine how they will protect themselves against various threats.

The most effective way to use violence to accomplish the objective of being left alone is for people understand that nothing they can obtain from you with the use of force is worth the price they will pay. This typically requires that at some point you demonstrate to them that you are both willing and able to make people using force against you to pay a price that far exceeds what they consider a fair exchange.

You also need to make it clear to everyone that you are not a threat to anyone who is not attacking you, attacking your people, threatening them or otherwise engaging in or preparing to engage in violence against the group or members of the group.

Whether this means killing everyone who enters your territory or arranging to murder the loved ones of everyone who attacks you or executing some other tactic to punish people who attack is a strategic decision that needs to be based on capabilities and what your people are willing to do and what you are willing to be responsible for.

[Irion]

True, nobody likes those...