If you had a small budget and needed to arm a lot of people, What would you do? (IE, what my players likely to do?) Options

[Yerameyahu]

I think you're making a classic blunder, there. Inevitably, one of the people you make an example of will have an unstoppable lone hero family member (or very close friend, etc.), and they will come systemically burn you to the ground on principle. They may or may not also be too old for this shit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

I think you're making a classic blunder, there. Inevitably, one of the people you make an example of will have an unstoppable lone hero family member (or very close friend, etc.), and they will come systemically burn you to the ground on principle. They may or may not also be too old for this shit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Frank Castle, never too old for this drek.

[Stahlseele]

Frank'n'Castle.
He does not get to be too old, he will be rebuilt.
Because they have the technology.
They can make him faster, stronger, meaner...

[CanRay]

"Maybe not meaner."

[Warlordtheft]

Back OT:

First the group needs to figure out what the farm already has. But priority should be for sensors, make sure the sensors have thermographic (the cameras are cheap)-1 per building interior, and 9 perimiter, watchers to patrol the perimiter, with 1 or 2 spirits as backup. Cause of the size at least 4 or 5 signal repeaters kept inside the compound. Also there should be at least 2 or 3 MCT Flyspies roving about.

Gear:
Sport Rifle or shotgun for those that can use them already.
Knife throwing and blades would be one of the things the residents would be trained in.
Unarmed combat will also be taught.
A small selection of body armor will be purchased either second hand or new.
Pistol training is mandatory, as is automatics (essentially get everyone up to a firearms groupskill of 1 or 2).
Weapons to be purchased (assuming the farmers have some sport rifles and shotguns):
A knife for everyone that doesnt have one.
A dozen pistols with 4 magazines each and ammo.
A couple of shotguns.
A half dozen AK-97's, with bipod and recoil pad and laser sight.
4 magazines each, and enough ammo for each.
Enough shotgun and rifle ammo to provide 4 full clip or magazines each.
A disposable commlink

I'd stayaway from grenades and explosives as they could damage the crops and the green houses. Though one troll armed with a panther cannon could be useful.



BTW-Yes I could see 20 armed gangers giving 200 farmers fits. 50 are definitely non combataants, of the remaining 150--how many are able to put up a fight? Probably a good 50 have the courage to do so, the remaining 100, would more than likely flee or just hunker down. I'd give them at most 5 mages (probably shamans of some nature), they probably have a few spells amongst them, mostly health, a few detection, and maybe 1 or 2 illusion/combat spells. Spirits are a different matter and probably have at most the one or two active at any given point in time. Given the size of the operation, It is likely that there are areas of the perimiter that are not manned, this is probably how the gangers get in and get out with the food.

[3278]

15,000 minus the runners' fees, remember. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's cutting it pretty close unless you could get a good deal on the weapons and ammo.

[Tias]

You've had a lot of good replies, so just throwing some disjointed ideas out here:

- Will you need to be on the defensive much? Use mines and booby-traps, fill the area with enough drek that scanners and MAD detectors are useless. Snipers

- Invest properly in your militia. Training, a functional bulletproof jacket and tricked-out rifle, external smartlinks, scanner shades and a couple of combat drug injectors will do wonders for your average street thugs output - not only because it augments his combat prowess, but it does wonders for morale.

It's a lot more expensive, yes, but will give you a motivated and hard-hitting force, even if it is smaller. Another possibility is to invest in lieutenants who get choice gear and training, but that won't do you a lot of good when a sensible enemy targets them first.

- See if you can get discounts on gear. The larger street gangs or gun runners will often cut you slack if you help them out with something else, like getting them rare gear or pulling a hit on the authorities or opponent groups. Arsenal goes into detail about the 'gray market' and corporate scrip, a savvy gun merchant can get quality firearms and ordnance a lot cheaper.

[Neraph]

I'm surprised no one has gone this rout...

3,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for six Armorer Kits.
1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a R2 Armorer Tutorsoft.
1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a R2 Blades Tutorsoft.
1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a R2 Infiltration Tutorsoft.
1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a R2 Archery Tutorsoft.

We're at 7k spent so far. I'm sure that, since they have a giant tree farm, they have axes and the like. They probably know their way around Blades fairly well, but the Tutorsoft will give them formal training. Since they have access to so much wood they can make their own bows and arrows (armorer skill). Since they have so much foliage around, they can make their own ghillie shrouds, which will help with their Infiltration skill.

For a group of farmers, we're looking at Strength 4 humans, 6 orks, and 8 trolls (one point above normal), that means their bows will be base DV 6P, 8P, and 10P, targetting the (more than likely) lower Impact armor of the gangers. Add in that they'll be trained to Take Aim from hiding, hitting the invaders with Success Tests instead of Opposed Tests. More than likely the farmers will all benefit from the Home Ground quality also, gaining an additional +2 to all Combat Tests.

You don't need a trained militia, you need an organized guerilla force.

On page 52 of Unwired it says that programs can be run on a remote node and be used by any subscribers - so in this case the Tutorsofts are run by a decent commlink (supplied by the group at first) so that the maximum number of people can access them at a time.

To give the guerillas a more dangerous edge, add in one Assaying Kit and a R2 Arcana and R2 Negotiations autosoft (2.5k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) extra). This'll allow the magically active to start gathering plant reagents from their environment and the Arcana/Negotiations will allow anyone with the ability to start Calling free Plant spirits for aid. Plant spirits have Concealment and Movement, two Powers that first responders will want.

So for a total of 9,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) you give the community the equipment necessary to defend themselves with their own resources.

EDIT: And the ability to make extra money on the side refining natural plant reagents.

EDIT 2: Assuming a 3 Agility and a 1 Skill, with Take Aim 3 and Home Ground we're looking at 9 dice for the defenders (about 3 successes). Their Infiltrate will be Agi 3, Infiltrate 1, Home Ground 2 = 6 (2 successes), imposing a -4 penalty to see them with the ghillie shrouds. Assuming the gangers have 4 Body and Armor Vests (6/4), they're rolling 8 dice to resist the 9P from a human archer getting the drop on them, resulting in an average of 7P damage taken and being knocked down. It only gets worse for the Ork and Troll Rangers.

[Yerameyahu]

It's always Calling with you.

[Neraph]

Not alwa.... actually yes, yes it is. It's that good.

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. Which is why it should never exist or be used. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Anyway.

I'm not sure a lot of bow and arrows are as effective (even cost-effective) as a bunch of cheap automatics. :/ It is an interesting idea, though.

[3278]

I'm sure that, since they have a giant tree farm, they have axes and the like.

Yes, because it's 1670, and they're in the Baltics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Can someone in 2070 even make bows and arrows out of wood in the first place? (Assuming they happen to have the right wood.) Also, don't tree farms ('forests') cover acres and acres, like the size of the whole Barrens? Don't tutorsofts (which only give an average of +1 die) take a while (weeks) and require them to have a bunch of free karma? The whole thing is suspicious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[3278]

Can someone in 2070 even make bows and arrows out of wood in the first place?

Hmm? Why wouldn't they be able to? If you could do it - and you could - why couldn't they?

Also, don't tree farms ('forests') cover acres and acres, like the size of the whole Barrens?

They absolutely can, but they don't have to: tree farms ["nurseries"] can be small city lots, but they're not going to be growing enormous trees. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And this development _is_ acres and acres, but I'm not certain they grow trees of a size or type to make a lot out of: greenhouses typically aren't the first choice for a nice yew.

[Yerameyahu]

Because everything in 2070 in polymer and metal, obviously. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And I sure couldn't, thankyouverymuch. Such things come from stores, just like fruits and vegetables.

That's what I was thinking: they said 'greenhouses', not 'tree farm'. A nursery sells shrubs and flowers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) They'll be out of trees bloody fast if they only have a city lot (at various stages of growth, too).

[kzt]

Sure. But you don't make decent ones out of green freshly harvested wood. And, realistically, it's a lot harder to learn how to use a bow effectively in combat than an AK or even a bolt action rifle.

[Neraph]

Don't tutorsofts (which only give an average of +1 die) take a while (weeks) and require them to have a bunch of free karma?

The alternative is a group that doesn't have any Instruction skill at all and the training part would have to happen anyways. You'd be assuming the farmers have Automatics instead of Longarms or Pistols, or that they have a skillgroup.

I'm not sure a lot of bow and arrows are as effective (even cost-effective) as a bunch of cheap automatics. :/ It is an interesting idea, though.

As effective or more, especially when compared to "cheap" automatics.

AK-97 - 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Clip - 15 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Price per shot - 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
DV: 6P, -1 AP against Ballistic.
Notes: Gunshots are easy to hear; BF/FA encourages "spray and pray," as well as not aiming as well.

Str 4 Bow - 400 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Price per shot - 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
DV: 6P against Impact.
Notes: Nearly silent; fewer shots encourage aiming.

Generally speaking, Ballistic Armor tends to be higher than Impact Armor, so you're at an advantage at targeting the lower of the two armors. Also, since a good archer lines up a shot (and with the Infiltration/ghillie shroud you're setting it up first) you're able to use more dice than the alternative. Fewer shots means less ammo used and more resources kept.

And, realistically, it's a lot harder to learn how to use a bow effectively in combat than an AK or even a bolt action rifle.

Matter of opinion. It all comes down to training, which is kind of the point here. Realistically, the fight is over after the first volley of arrows, if shot properly from sentries that've taken aim.

[kzt]

Matter of opinion. It all comes down to training, which is kind of the point here. Realistically, the fight is over after the first volley of arrows, if shot properly from sentries that've taken aim.

I've tried to learn to shoot a bow and have learned to shoot a rifle. You can train someone to shoot a rifle at a man-sized target at 200 meters with a high chance of success in under a week. Good luck with trying to get them to reliably hit with a bow at the same sized target at 100 meters in a month. It's a much more complex skill and requires a lot more physical strength. In fact, you can tell from a skeleton whether someone was a longbow archer, due to the deformation of the left arms and bone spurs. There was a good reason why England banned all games and amusements for men and boy other then shooting longbows on Sundays, and required churches to provide archery targets.

[ShadowDragon8685]

kzt is quite right. The rules don't provide for it, but the main reason guns won out over bows when they both performed pretty much the same in terms of damage done to another army at a given range was because you could round up a few hundred guys with working arms and both eyes and teach them to use that rifle semi-competently in a matter of days or weeks. Bows? Fuggedaboutit. It takes a lifetime to make an archer, and one bad wound to put him out of commission forever. (Well, this is not strictly speaking true in Shadowrun, but still.)

[Manunancy]

Bows? Fuggedaboutit. It takes a lifetime to make an archer, and one bad wound to put him out of commission forever. (Well, this is not strictly speaking true in Shadowrun, but still.)

I don't remember the exact wording but there was a saying that to train a good archer you had to train his father (not 100% sure on that last bit, it might have been his granfather.)

I also agree that a bow made out of the first pice of green wood you get your hand one will be a piece of crap. To make a bow strong enough to be worthwhile you need a strong wood who's been properly dried.

There's also the little detail of how the person to be protected will react - saying you've bruned the defense budget on software to teach them to craft and use bow is likely to result in reactions like 'yeah right, did you get a soft for flint-knipping to go with it ? you know, so we can make the spears to go with the bows'.

[3278]

Because everything in 2070 in polymer and metal, obviously. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And I sure couldn't, thankyouverymuch. Such things come from stores, just like fruits and vegetables.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Oh, no, you'd have no problem, nor would they. Building your first bow is complicated, difficult, and time-consuming; after that, it's just complicated and time-consuming. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Given the matrix and basic tools and materials, anyone can make a bow. But:

But you don't make decent ones out of green freshly harvested wood.

And, realistically, it's a lot harder to learn how to use a bow effectively in combat than an AK or even a bolt action rifle.

[Warlordtheft]

kzt is quite right. The rules don't provide for it, but the main reason guns won out over bows when they both performed pretty much the same in terms of damage done to another army at a given range was because you could round up a few hundred guys with working arms and both eyes and teach them to use that rifle semi-competently in a matter of days or weeks. Bows? Fuggedaboutit. It takes a lifetime to make an archer, and one bad wound to put him out of commission forever. (Well, this is not strictly speaking true in Shadowrun, but still.)

Actually the crossbow beat out the bow, and then the gun came along and beat out the crossbow (better penetrating power). Of course for the farmers, a crossbow might be an acceptable alsternative to the bow. Regarding traps, problem would be the coverage. The area is a couple of square clicks, so yeah you could place IEDs and punji sticks to defend the huge green houses, but they would have to be in strategic areas to be effective. You'd nee alot to cover all your bases and at 15K I don't see that happening.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't buy your 'archers would get Aim and Surprise, guns wouldn't' point, though. Those are unrelated to the weapon.

[nezumi]

Regarding traps, problem would be the coverage. The area is a couple of square clicks, so yeah you could place IEDs and punji sticks to defend the huge green houses, but they would have to be in strategic areas to be effective. You'd nee alot to cover all your bases and at 15K I don't see that happening.

Drop bears.

[Wounded Ronin]

Oh man, I've tried shooting a few bows. It's much harder than using firearms, although I appreciate the workout. I'd say there's almost no comparison in terms of how quickly you can build your ability to hit a target, especially a small target the size or an orange or something.


EDIT: Khe Sahn the bad guys. Let them take a certain point of high ground, but then encircle it and psychologically torture them for a year by preventing them from getting resupply and harassing them with unending mortar strikes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)