What does Response 0 really mean?, DDOS and the like. Options

[Aerospider]

If a more's response is reduced to 0, by a DDOS attack say, then as per Unwired p.101 it freezes all activity on the node.

Does that mean an external user, functioning with their own link's Response rating, can log/hack in and have free run of the place?

[Yerameyahu]

No. Everything's just sludged. I'd have to poke around to see if there are actually rules (the whole Response 0 things has always been vague), but it's just good sense, and good balance: you can't *interact* with something that's frozen. Even though your whizzy programs are running at speed back on your commlink, you can't get any data to do anything with them, including using your user account and any of its privs/functions.

Or are you asking for a strict-broken-RAW reading? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Anything's possible, I guess.

[KarmaInferno]

Ever had your computer freeze up while working on it?

Little spinning "wait" icon, pounding on the keyboard does nothing, etc?

Yeah.




-k

[Aerospider]

So when hacking a node it really helps if it's Response is reduced to 1, but screws you if it's reduced to 0?

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The rules for DDOS seem pretty tacked-on. Alas.

It seems fair enough: it's almost the same as crashing, which doesn't 'help' you. If anything, more of your actions should be based on *their* Response. Even if you're running all your fancy computation back at home, you're still relying on the node for all your action requests, etc.

[Seriously Mike]

But it can be used to essentially kill any centralized security system, right? You nuke the node until it stalls and then you're free to go.

[Aerospider]

But it can be used to essentially kill any centralized security system, right? You nuke the node until it stalls and then you're free to go.

Do you think so? Wouldn't all the slaved nodes just carry on what they were doing? Doors remaining locked, drones still executing their patrol scripts, etc.? I suppose the sensors wouldn't record you (unless they usually keep a copy of the feed on their own node) and detectors wouldn't be able to alert anyone, but the system would be rebooted in short order and if not then any prolonged blackout would have HTR en route quicksmart anyway.

[Saint Sithney]

Signal 0 doesn't mean no signal or no connections.

This suggests that Response 0 doesn't mean it's inoperable.

[Stahlseele]

Doesn't response 0 mean that the node can't handle even the OS that is on it?

[Yerameyahu]

No, the OS is based on base Response. But in that regard, we know 'exactly' what Response 0 means: 'everything slows to a crawl' (nothing about the OS, etc.). The problem is we don't know what *that* means. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

If the response falls to 0, then it seems likely the node in question is either hung completely, or it slows to such a crawl that it automatically terminates all running programs (including Firewall!) just to keep the OS going.

If it's the first one, the dropping Response to 0 will do jack shit for hacking, but creates its own possibilities, as was mentioned above. If it's the second, then it's basically handing the keys over to whomever just hacked the shit out of it.

More than likely, a node that drops to Response 0 would just reboot.


The weird thing is, though, DDOS shouldn't work in SR4. Since everything's based off the Response of the node doing the asking and stuff, you'd need to hack into a node to get administrator access and run ten dozen copies of Edit or something to drive its Response into the ground.

On the other hand, having a net of slave units sounds like a great way for "no fucks are given" approach to hacking: send in a couple dozen Agents with Attack to zergrush the IC and pummel it into submission before you waltz on in.

[Udoshi]

Its worth noting that you can overload the subscription limit to the point where a node will use up all its processor limit doing so, and eventually tank its response to zero.

Its really only possible if you have access to a lot of devices and actions to open up those subscriptions, but if you do, its possible. The Nuke program is way better at it, though.

[Chinane]

If the response falls to 0, then it seems likely the node in question is either hung completely, or it slows to such a crawl that it automatically terminates all running programs (including Firewall!) just to keep the OS going.

An automatic process from the system will certainly not terminate the firewall, unless the system is maintained by computer illiterates. An automatic response could be disabling wireless, rebooting the firewall, reenable wireless, if that doesn't help reboot the whole system in the same way. If the problem still persists, wait for a manual solution.

A manual shutdown might terminate the firewall, but only after a maintenance hacker is plugged in by wire and disabled wireless access or routed the whole node over an alternative firewall with full restrictions.

[ShadowDragon8685]

If the response has fallen to 0, then the Firewall is operating at Rating 0 anyway. May as well turn it off to try and restore some system stability.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Firewall is not limited by response, and programs are only limited by base response, not by degraded response.

[Yerameyahu]

The main problem, as I said, is that we know none of those things happen (terminate Firewall, etc.), but we don't know any details about what *does* happen. It seems like a stupid rule all around, like they just tried to suddenly tack on something from 'modern computing'.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The main problem, as I said, is that we know none of those things happen (terminate Firewall, etc.), but we don't know any details about what *does* happen. It seems like a stupid rule all around, like they just tried to suddenly tack on something from 'modern computing'.

Well, the one thing that you DO know happens is that the Poor Schlub on the Response 0 Node is now likely going LAST for pretty much any action that he wishes to take (The same for his IC). That is generally very bad for that individual, when EVERYTHING goes before he does. An honestly, you really do not need to get more specific than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, but that's not what anyone's asking, AFAIK. We were talking about what happens 'in' the node, what does 'slows to a crawl' actually mean, etc.

[The Jopp]

Yes, but that's not what anyone's asking, AFAIK. We were talking about what happens 'in' the node, what does 'slows to a crawl' actually mean, etc.

AFAIK there is no hard clear rules. For simplicity I would add the responce reduction of the node as a negative dice modifier for the following:
-Anything the Node owner does

The attacker is not *inside* the node, he attacks from his node to the target node so he is not as affected.

-Any request the hacker does to said node (Retrieving files takes slower for example)

The hacker is not affected as much since everything he does is based on his own response but if it needs involvement from the target node it will in some way affect his performance.

-Anything that takes time in combat turns is increased by the amount of response that is decreased.

So if a hacker takes an action that would normally take 3 combat turns and the response of the target node is decreased by -3 then it would take 6 turns instead.

[Yerameyahu]

See, that's all house rules (and kinda complex ones, at that: you'd make a Response 3 node reduced to 0 faster than a Response 6 reduced to 0?). It might be good and playable, but it's not from the book. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's all.

It's hard for me to imagine anything the attack could do 'in the node' that wouldn't be affected. Only their other matrix activities wouldn't be affected; for most purposes, they *are* 'inside the node'. We did talk about this earlier. Are there any node activities that don't rely on participation from the node, that could run at full speed back on the commlink?

[Saint Sithney]

Yes, but that's not what anyone's asking, AFAIK. We were talking about what happens 'in' the node, what does 'slows to a crawl' actually mean, etc.

VR Initiative is reduced considerably and dodging in VR cybercombat is extremely difficult.
Jumped in/autonomous response is trashed for drones.
Etc. Etc.

That's the mechanical effect, ergo, that's what it means.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, but again, I'm asking about 'in the node'. I think you're clearly correct about the 'external' effects. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

So the question is "Does the 'slowed to a crawl' status have some sort of defineable effect which would otherwise bypass the fact that Users, data and Programs are traditionally unaffected by the Effective Response attribute of a Node?"

I guess we ought to start with analogous rules...

No books atm, but I remember the Nerve Strike power for Adepts makes specific mention of paralysis as a mechanical effect of reducing an attribute to 0. The mechanical effects of Paralysis are also mentioned specifically in the toxins section, so it is an ability which specificallly causes a defined mechanical effect when conditions are met. I believe the Nuke program is similar, causing a Crash instead.

I don't recall the "Reduce Attribute" spell calling out Paralysis, or the encumberence rules, like if a Body 1 Pixie wanted to wear an Armor Jacket. Clarity here would help.
Next question is "Would a person with an attribute reduced to 0 still be susceptible to a Control Actions/Thoughts spell?"

Anyway, by RAW, there is no exceptional mechanical effect here. I'm not convinced that there should be.
Routing a data file's info to a subscribed user should take essentially 0 clock cycles for the magical supercomputers we're talking about, much like routing a remote command from an external user to a linked device.
At the same time, a running program, like Analyze, set up on the Node which has been overwhelmed shouldn't really be able to work at its full capacity.

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. So it'd be nice to know exactly what's affected and what's not.

[Udoshi]

VR Initiative is reduced considerably and dodging in VR cybercombat is extremely difficult.
Jumped in/autonomous response is trashed for drones.
Etc. Etc.

I'm fairly sure that an attacker uses their own commlink stats, not the stats of a node they connect to(this is the realm of roving agents).
It means the -defender- gets screwed, and the bit about drones is spot-on - drones use Response for SO many things, it in your best interests to reduce it.