How do you 'clean' a vehicle?, RFID chips are a massive pain in the carjacker's ass. Options

[Manunancy]

That’s about 9 locations so we add 9 tags of each type INSIDE the vehicle on construction. That’s comes out at 283,5Y which is 2,84% of the market price.
The cost of that is redacted from any insurance the company or costumer has to pay as it increases security for the insurance company which means they can lower the insurance cost.

If you look at IRL car maker finance, a 3% increase in production cost will wipe our most of their profit margin. Increased insurance cost on th customers is no skin of the builder's nose until it significantly impacts the sales.

[Udoshi]

Okay, bringing out the books:

Finally, someone that isn't me actually gets out their books and reads this stuff before commenting on how they think it works.

Thank you for actually raising rules awareness in this thread! Good job, do it more often.

And actually bothers to cite their sources! Keep that good habit up, buddy!




(I'll give a more serious response when its not past midnight and I can actually think straight about what you wrote.)

Didn't you ever see people talking about using Nullifier AR software to safely cast stunball (etc.) in friendly crowds? If you can't see them, they can't be targets.

This sounds hilarious, please tell me more.

[3278]

Well, sounds like that's the answer here - some people allow for RFID cleaning at their tables, and some do not.

At our table, we ignore it completely, as we do a lot of these constant security measures. The presumption is that a countermeasure exists, and that the characters know what it is, and will use it: the 400th time of playing out disassembling a car to its frame stops being particularly interesting for most of our players.

Finally, someone that isn't me actually gets out their books and reads this stuff before commenting on how they think it works.

Yeah. Finally. Someone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

snowRaven quoted the same part I quoted. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) As expected, it backed up what I'd been saying. You can say I didn't provide page numbers, but stop pretending that we're all making things things up and haven't read the books.

[cryptoknight]

I hate RFID tags. Simply because of how they have put hem into the game. ANY company worth their salt would include RFID tags into everything that is insurable. Why? Because it protects their bottom line. Also, the cost of tags are so low that they would probably LOOSE their insurance unless they have them.

Security Tags are 100Y a pop for the average consumer. Let’s assume that a company gets them at about 30% of market price so we land at 30Y per tag. Stealth Tags are only ever active if they receive a signal, and only cost 5Y and 30% of that is 1,5Y.
And lets not talk about the 1Y ones, they are basically free and you could SEED every product with them.

Actually the price for Tags is for 20 of them per Sr4A's table. So 5¥ each. It's worse than that.... the air should be filled with the bloody things.

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed, and all materials have nanotags simply 'dissolved' in them. What a mess.

[snowRaven]

This sounds hilarious, please tell me more.

Well, since you need line of sight you can use software and AR to block out people in your field of vision using computerized graphics, and since that blocks you from seeing them they can't be affected by your Stunball/Orgasm/Mob Mind or whatever area spell you want.

This should be standard fare for any SR security force worth their salt, really - it's easy, and effective, per RAW. Cheesy as well, though, imo.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, since you need line of sight you can use software and AR to block out people in your field of vision using computerized graphics, and since that blocks you from seeing them they can't be affected by your Stunball/Orgasm/Mob Mind or whatever area spell you want.

This should be standard fare for any SR security force worth their salt, really - it's easy, and effective, per RAW. Cheesy as well, though, imo.

And Udoshi... In case you are wondering, the software is known as Negator. It is an ARE Program. You can find it in Unwired.

[Yerameyahu]

It's not *that* cheesy: this is the kind of tech-meets-magic tactic that you'd expect in SR.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's not *that* cheesy: this is the kind of tech-meets-magic tactic that you'd expect in SR.

Agreed... Not THAT Cheesy.

[CanRay]

Hell, think about Spam Zones, "I can't see anything to hit with my spells! Why the hell did I not get a better Firewall???"

[snowRaven]

It's not *that* cheesy: this is the kind of tech-meets-magic tactic that you'd expect in SR.

True...but the rules have always made a special point of mages not being able to 'selectively ignore' valid targets for area spells, which is exactly what using the software does, really.

Plus, in order to be effective in combat, the software has to be able recognize the 'undesired' and edit it out fast enough so that the mage never even gets a hint of aura seen (and the program can't actually see the aura in any way) which means basically that it has to foresee every movement the 'undesirable target' makes and edit accordingly in real time. That, or the blot out has to be big enough to allow for sudden movements.

Stuff like lighting conditions can change the appearance of people, along with wounds, dirt etc...how different can the undesired target start to look before the program stops seeing him or her as undesirable?

For 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , you get a program so efficient that it is able to recognize, analyze, and edit out stuff in real time in a chaotic combat situation regardless of how they are moving or what they are doing, to such an efficiency that it blots out the entirety of their auras at all times, even during unexpected movements of both the mage and the non-targets...

If it had to be combined with Tacsofts, possibly RFIDs, and there were rules for how likely it was that the covered people were glimpsed and 'just' got cover, that'd be one thing. I just don't feel that such a cheap, simple, commonly available program should be able to do all that is required at the necessary efficiency.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

But AREs are always really cheap and really good at what they do...

I think the aura argument counts: The program would have to blot out more than it can actually see. If it does, you should get visibility penalties.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, snowRaven, they can't do it naturally. They need the software. Like I said, it is a *little* amazing, but not as bad as many other things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I agree that it requires pretty impressive computation to do it, but we're given to accept that such computation exists in 2070. You could make the 'combat-grade' version of it much more expensive, or indeed, require Tacsoft, etc.

I don't think the aura extends far enough to worry about this. It somehow 'peeks through' clothing (I've heard that it 'bleeds through'), but that's not very far even if we take that to mean 'the aura extends <clothing> distance in all directions at all times'.

[3278]

I don't think the aura extends far enough to worry about this. It somehow 'peeks through' clothing (I've heard that it 'bleeds through'), but that's not very far even if we take that to mean 'the aura extends <clothing> distance in all directions at all times'.

The metahuman aura - explicitly in previous versions, implicitly in SR4 - extends at least a handsbreadth from the surface of the skin, else it wouldn't be visible through sufficiently bulky military grade body armor. Yes, this means that, like lightning strikes, you want to keep your arms and legs away from the sides of the vehicle. And don't lean again exterior windows, polarized* or otherwise.

*"Polarized" here meaning SR's magic polarized glass, of course, not actual polarized glass.

[snowRaven]

Right, snowRaven, they can't do it naturally. They need the software. Like I said, it is a *little* amazing, but not as bad as many other things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I agree that it requires pretty impressive computation to do it, but we're given to accept that such computation exists in 2070. You could make the 'combat-grade' version of it much more expensive, or indeed, require Tacsoft, etc.

I don't think the aura extends far enough to worry about this. It somehow 'peeks through' clothing (I've heard that it 'bleeds through'), but that's not very far even if we take that to mean 'the aura extends <clothing> distance in all directions at all times'.

Change 'clothing' to 'full heavy military armor' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And they 'can' do it naturally, by positioning themselves so that they intentionally cover what/whomever they don't want to hit with objects in between. Thing is, there isn't really much mention of how the Negator works or doesn't work. It sure doesn't seem it was intended to work as a default 'friendly-fire safety' for mages. From it's description, I read it as more of 'just' pasting preset images over preset stuff identified from a (likely customizable) database. I highly doubt it'd be fool proof, especially smart, or adaptible enough to be of *that* much use in a combat situation.

Of course, compared to what stuff like Emotitoys, Tacsofts, and various stuff from War! can do, it's very mild...

Personally, I'd either force the mage to take the equivalent of an aiming action to make sure everything's going to turn out as intended, have every covered target make an Edge test to be 'safe', or require a more expensive, harder to get program with a Rating (more along the line of the costs for Tacsofts, Emoti-sensor progs etc), where the Rating is equal to the maximum number of people it can cover in as chaotic a situation as a combat situation (and with the option of doing the opposite, possibly - cover everything but the desired targets).

Something like this:

Advanced Negator ARE; Availability: Rating x 2; Cost(up to Rating 3): Rating x 200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (up to Rating 6) Rating x 400 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Advanced Negator programs work just like regular Negator, except they offer better coverage, more options, and can be set to ignore up to (Rating) different types of stimuli. This makes them ideal for mages wanting to exempt people or objects from an area spell. If desired, they can work in conjunction with a camera to create an artificial representation of the object for easier identification. It can also create a fully artificial image based on the enviroment, with 'openings' following up to (Rating) targets, in order to cast an area spell but only affect a select number of targets.

[Yerameyahu]

Armor is clothing, full military or not. Like I said, there's some indication that worn clothing *is* special in terms of aura interaction.

Implicit or not, we *know* that the aura doesn't extend through windows, walls, cardboard, etc. As I said, the facts don't agree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Still, my point is that one can easily imagine the negators working despite this pretty small aura extension (whatever it is).

[3278]

Like I said, there's some indication that worn clothing *is* special in terms of aura interaction.

What indications would those be?

Implicit or not, we *know* that the aura doesn't extend through windows, walls, cardboard, etc.

Interesting. Where are you seeing that?

[Yerameyahu]

Where are you seeing that it does? Everything we know indicates that barriers wholly block magic LOS. Clothing and armor is the sole exception (and this is presumably because they're not Barriers, they're clothing). The rules here are beyond vague, as I said.

[3278]

Where are you seeing that it does?

Explicitly in previous versions, implicitly with SR4a. Assuming we're sticking to SR4a, the "implicit" part is that fully-sealed body armor doesn't block LOS, so we can imply that, say, leaning against a window would make you a valid target. But we don't have to imply this! Another interpretation is that clothing [including, as you note, armor] has some special property [like plot convenience! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ] that makes it not block LOS when other things do. That's why I was asking where you were seeing any explicit mention that the aura doesn't extend through windows, walls, cardboard, etc: to see if there was actually an explicit rule that would contradict the implication, but I think you're saying that there isn't, correct?

[Yerameyahu]

The basic LOS and astral sight rules say that you can't see through barriers, objects, etc., with no mention of how close you're standing. I'm saying that, yes, these conflicting facts mean we have to assume that clothing is special.

[3278]

The basic LOS and astral sight rules say that you can't see through barriers, objects, etc., with no mention of how close you're standing.

And I would argue this is exactly correct: the basic LOS and astral sight rules don't allow you to see through barriers, objects, etc. However, the basic astral rules do allow astral stuff like metahuman auras to pass through material things with impunity, don't they? It seems like this would also explain why you can target someone in military grade armor who you cannot see, and wouldn't require that one type of material behave differently from another ["clothing" from "everything else"].

[Yerameyahu]

No, I've never seen anything that indicates you can target anything that is physically behind a barrier, whether 1mm or 1m behind it. And yes, it requires clothing to be special, like a said a couple times. I didn't write the, rules, it's not my fault they're dumb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Modular Man]

How exactly did this derail to a discussion about a living being's aura? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
To point it out, neither RFIDs nor cars have an aura. They only appear as pale shadows on the astral plane.

Now back to the topic:

Unless, perhaps, you can create some kind of indirect elemental effect like radiation, that passes through the case (the 'EMP spell'). Theoretically, this is possible (I guess?), but man do I hate the 'new' magic elements. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Way ahead of you: "Street Magic", p. 174 has the "Pulse" spell. Basic EMP field to which RFIDs are very vulnerable. It's a manipulation spell, though. It supposedly doesn't care about line of sight to any RFIDs because it just creates a field regardless of anything in it - it's a side effect that RFIDs do not like this field. The spell doesn't try to magically sort between targets.
For the technical solution: get a drone with a non-linear junction detector and a few vehicular tools and a HERF pistol. Preferrably a small drone, if not several of them. They will get into places you cannot reach. Also add means to physically remove RFIDs that cannot be erased that easily.
Hacking and rewriting those RFIDs is another viable idea. I would still think, though, that they have a specific Access ID - you could edit the information they broadcast, but not the ID, that requires hardware access. You could spoof it, anyway. If you physically remove the original tags, it would be best to just add in your own with the appropriate information.
Of course, you could mix the technical and magical methods. "Detect RFID" is awesome to make sure you got every last one of those little buggers. The mage could highlight them in a 3D plan of the car utilizing a ultrawideband radar, possibly.
I wish I could find this old post again where cleaning a car was described as a remote operation... also using drones. There have also been other threads regarding this topic, e.g. this one.
Well, wall of text finished. I particularily like this topic, just because I plan on bugging my GM with ideas as such... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Sounds good to me, Modular Man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Is the HERF a pistol? I always assumed it was a large-ish longarm.

It would suck to be that poor mage, because you can't extract magic senses via simsense; he'd have to mark every bugger in 3D manually, and there could be scads.