Transhumanism or superheroes - without essence cost, how hard would the game break?, When money and BP/Karma are the only factor... Options

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

So I keep thinking about this: how important is essence as a game balance tool? (Because it certainly serves pretty poorly as anything else.)

So now there are two train of thoughts here:

1) Every character, as in, special person, is awakened for free, and does NOT suffer magic loss, either. People who wish to be mundane can cash in on their magical quality (5bp/10karma for adept).

2) magic loss is the only consequence of augmentation

Even cursorily glancing through the books brings me to a money stop when starting to install serious cyber/bio. Also, bioware instantly loses some of it's advantage, since you're not splitting the pool anymore, and the high cost holds it back. The only way to make really filthy use of it is using used cyber. Also, a lot of ware needs Restricted gear at a useful rating, so you're not buying endless high rating wares.

So basically, how much does the game turn into a clash of demigods? Is this like epic D&D, where the game basically breaks, or does the scale simply shift? I'm thinking the game is actually less likely to break, because DP creep is less bad than bonus creep with a fixed RNG. What will likely happen first is that characters will not only have obscene offensive DPs, but rather obscene defenses, too, due to cyberlimbs/armour/dermal sheath/etc. So will the game overall become more deadly, or less?

The other thing is that now fairly well-rounded characters can still have large DPs in some areas. When playing around with DK's sheet a bit I immediately don't find my attempt at a character much more extreme than some of the chars posted on these boards - however, he can sport a 20dice offensive pool while still having around 30+dice for damage resistance (which clearly isn't really that much). I also don't need to min-max much.

[Yerameyahu]

Given that everything was designed with Essence in place, you'd have to change everything before you could do anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As you say, used cyber, and then bioware, are totally different from their old selves. You'd throw out half the book just removing the redundant items.

The question you pose has too many variables to really predict, but I guess that everyone would spend all their cash on 'ware, while retaining magic; everyone would be extreme cyber-mysads. The proliferation of defenses wouldn't matter for direct combat spells (and mind control, illusions, etc.), so they'd get even more popular. NPCs (esp. mundanes) would indeed become literally ignorable. Spirits would be useless as combat drones, so they'd use their unstoppable Powers instead. I can't say if it'd be more or less deadly, because there's not that much 'ware that can make you more deadly than people already are… but spells don't care about your cyberarmor.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Do technomancers lose resonance as well? If not, that's a huge change for them.

I'm not sure if anything really changes by the "everyone starts as a mage" aspect or why add it in this thought experiment as a confounding variable. It just makes being a mage cheaper. Since the magician quality was 15 points, you only "save" 10 BP which isn't much of a deal.

As for the general thrust of the thought experiment, it's "what if mundanes didn't have to worry about essence loss?" The answer is that heavy essence killers like full body replacements, wired reflexes 3, and muscle replacements do pretty well for themselves. Full body replacement + WR2 is extremely cheap and can give you a lot of attributes. You'll see a lot of cripples in shells. Cyberarmor is a great deal that becomes better. That hurts mundane sources of damage especially as a threat to PCs.

However, in the end it's not that big of a deal. Mundanes can make essence go a hell of a long way especially if they have money. Cash is the only real limiter. Really it'll be the same if shadowrunner pay was really high in the 50000+Y a person range. Mundanes eventually converge to full body replacements unless they have really huge physical stats anyways.

[JanessaVR]

This is basically what I've been advocating for some time. I like the idea of the full-body cyborgs from Cyberpunk 2020 and Ghost in the Shell. I think you could keep Essence around as a balancing factor, but simply make one change, as follows:

Acquiring cyberware and bioware will reduce your character's Essence score, which in turn reduces their Magic rating. If Essence hits 0, your character does not die, but loses all Awakened abilities, no longer being able to perform magic.

And there you go. Street sammies can load up on as much cyberware as they want (it would be smart to just go the full-body route), and mages will typically avoid it if they know what's good for them (although a friend of mine is adamant in insisting that losing 1 point of Essence for his mages to acquire cybereyes, a datajack, etc. is worth it, and I can see that argument).

[Irion]

@JanessaVR
It would end up with characters having half of the book installed as ware.

In short: Mages would only operate astral and adepts will be fucked big time.
Technomancers will be fucked too.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree: mentioning magic in this equation is really superfluous. What we're talking about is unlimited mundane augmentation (and at significantly lower costs, too).

[JanessaVR]

@JanessaVR
It would end up with characters having half of the book installed as ware.

In short: Mages would only operate astral and adepts will be fucked big time.
Technomancers will be fucked too.

Well, yes, that's more or less what I was saying. If you're not a mage, might as well go full cyborg body. What's the problem? Tabletop GitS:SAC meets the Sixth World. Mundanes go purely mechanical, mages avoid it, and thus you don't have full-borg-body spellcasters, and avoid all that "cyberzombie" nonsense. Yes, Adepts would be screwed. So what, I always thought they were a bad deal anyway.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, one problem is that this would totally change the game world (no progression beyond cyber into bio, etc.). Not insurmountable, of course.

[3278]

I played around with it with my own group some years ago, and it didn't really have a massive effect on the game. It's always seemed to me like this mostly changes the very high end of the game, anyway, where many people feel Awakened characters have a significant advantage already; this can smooth that advantage, particularly if the game is calibrated for the alteration [with the sorts of changes Yerameyahu and others have already mentioned would be necessary]. I thought it was kind of fun, and would be even better in SR4a [where I sometimes have problems shoehorning everything I want into low-end characters who can't afford high-grade ware].

[Yerameyahu]

Honestly, it depends on the game you want (not the world, the game). If you want a game where the PCs *don't* start at or near their maximum powers, this change is a problem; SR4 is bad enough in this regard (as are games like Exalted), for several things, and this would exacerbate it. If you *do* want that, then yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JanessaVR]

Well, one problem is that this would totally change the game world (no progression beyond cyber into bio, etc.). Not insurmountable, of course.

Change it for the better, I would argue. As always, YMMV. That said, I think now's a good time to mention this to our GM, as we're going to be starting a new campaign soon.

[Yerameyahu]

Better or worse, it's a significant history and world change, I'm saying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This issue can't be assumed to only affect mechanics, that's all.

[3278]

If you want a game where the PCs *don't* start at or near their maximum powers, this change is a problem...

Wait, what? Maybe it's the phrasing, but I'm confused. I want a game where PCs start at, whatever, 1 percent of their potential, but this change isn't a problem for me. Could you explain?

[Yerameyahu]

This change makes it even easier in SR4 to start at a higher fraction of your max (esp. in a given subfield). Money and Essence are both less limiting, now; you can have more of your cyber wishlist than under the normal rules. SR4 is pretty bad for this already (one can already begin as literally the greatest marksman on Earth, for example).

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Maybe with some real cyber concealability rules bioware could still have a future? Cyber is cheap and obvious, bio is expensive + undetectable.

I agree that the no magic-loss idea was really just a way to make superheroes, which isn't a game that could even remotely be translated back to Shadowrun.

However, with magic loss still in place... it could be fun, if a little different.

[3278]

This change makes it even easier in SR4 to start at a higher fraction of your max (esp. in a given subfield).

How would it do that? Wouldn't the increase of your maximum be proportionate to the increase in your minimum?

[Yerameyahu]

… No? There's a set number and ratings of the relevant cyber for any given subfield. Infinite essence mostly lets you generalize, not specialize. It does let you start closer to your max specialization for a given subfield, was my point.

[Udoshi]

1) Every character, as in, special person, is awakened for free, and does NOT suffer magic loss, either. People who wish to be mundane can cash in on their magical quality (5bp/10karma for adept).

One of the more interesting houserules i've seen proposed on the forums here for a game is to make EVERYONE an Adept for free - basically boot everyone straight into Hollywood Protagonist mode, and give them a set/limited # of power points, perhaps based on Edge or something.
Basically the idea is that a lot of Adept powers are not very magical at all, and could be attributed to special training, so you give everyone a few power points to flesh out their idea.

[3278]

… No? There's a set number and ratings of the relevant cyber for any given subfield.

Right, and that caps the high end, absolutely. But a starting level character can't hit the Availability they'd need to make proportionate use of the limitless essence, and in many cases wouldn't be able to afford it, either...depending, of course, on the changes needed to make the whole crazy thing work! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Irion]

@3278
They do not need to, they just take MORE.
It does not matter if I hit the cap with muscle toner or muscle replacement. It does not matter if I go Move by wire or Wired reflexes+rection enhancer+ Skillwires and so on.

I totally agree with Yerameyahu. Thats not some minor change like the 1001 changes to magic or the 1001 changes to make full cyber characters a bit more attractive.

As soone as you use the possibilities, it totally changes the game world.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not saying they'd be at 100%, 3278. I'm saying they'd be closer than they are now. The 100% didn't move, but now they have more cash and Essence (infinity).

[3278]

@3278
They do not need to, they just take MORE.
It does not matter if I hit the cap with muscle toner or muscle replacement. It does not matter if I go Move by wire or Wired reflexes+rection enhancer+ Skillwires and so on.

We're talking about a starting character, right? How much money is it you expect them to spend? Again, on the low end, they're still getting capped, they're just getting capped by money and Availability instead of money, Availability, and Essence. On the high end...well, there aren't hard caps on money and Availability like there are on a starting character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thats not some minor change like the 1001 changes to magic or the 1001 changes to make full cyber characters a bit more attractive.

I suppose it all depends on what you consider "minor." It's definitely not a little change, no, but it's less of a change than if you eliminated magic or made all drugs free and mandatory or something. It didn't wreck the game for us [SR3, though; worth remembering], and wasn't even what I'd call a major consideration. But my anecdote shouldn't stand proxy as a common experience, either: my group might be mad whack or something, it's hard to tell.

[Irion]

@3278
Starting characters would be limited by Availability more than by the costs.
Muscle replacement is 5k per point.
Wired reflexes 3 is 20 BP. True it gets expensive a bit. But still nothing compared to the amounts bioware does cost. (Move by wire 2 is under 10BP)

[3278]

Starting characters would be limited by Availability more than by the costs.

Definitely.

[Neraph]

We're talking about a starting character, right? How much money is it you expect them to spend?

330,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .