Transhumanism or superheroes - without essence cost, how hard would the game break?, When money and BP/Karma are the only factor... Options

[Yerameyahu]

And there are limb-only implants. It's true that it makes them much *less* useful, though, at least in traditional ways.

[3278]

If you remove Essence you have to either remove all 'capacity' stats for cyber replacements, or add 'capacity' to the natural body.

Yeah, there is a "physical space" issue that would need to be addressed in some way or another.

[Yerameyahu]

'What do you *mean* I can't have 48 implanted HMGs?! There's no Essence cost!' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Hm. I guess you'd see a lot more implanted commlinks (and things like that). Will it be vastly easier to identify mages, because they're the ones with no implants, or would the implants be mostly invisible to non-scanners?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Between deltaware and cyberware suites, you do not miss out on much anyways.

With those calculated in, a sammie can squeeze in almost 10 essence worth of ware.

If you are running on all bonuses, you can fit almost 30 Essence points of Ware in the metahuman body and still be playable. (with a .2 Essence Cost). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The questionis if there really are 30 points worth of quality Ware. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Which still is just a small proportion of the stuff available in all the books...

I mean cyberware(no limbs or weapons) only, core book only (using cybereyes, ears) you end up with around 18 Points worth of ware...
If you go the full limb replaced character + ware+cyberweapons...

True using bioware the amount will drop. But there nearly everything has a raiting or may even be taken several times and bioware can't, as far as I know, be part of a suite and does not profit from any essence cost reducing gene thearapie.
(So it will go down to 40% and not 20%. Making cyberware more essence friendly in some cases...)
So I guess even with the corebook stuff, you may end up above the 30...

[Yerameyahu]

All I know is that the truly extreme Essence builds in the normal rules (inc. cyberzombies) run *out* of things to get. Well, run out of things worth getting; you can always keep adding cyberglands and things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
The question is always: What is worth getting?
Throwing in 250k to get +1 for one other skill group might not be worth it. (Thats why I said, it only happens if you throw around a billion at your players...)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

All I know is that the truly extreme Essence builds in the normal rules (inc. cyberzombies) run *out* of things to get. Well, run out of things worth getting; you can always keep adding cyberglands and things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Indeed... I have absolutely no doubt that you will run out of stuff to buy before you run out of Essence. Which is why I do not see Essence as a real barrier in any game. Eventually, you will get what you want. It just takes time. And I am good with that, personally.

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well it depends on what you consider "stuff to buy".
Is a reflex recorder something to have? Move by wire? Cybereyes? Cyberears? Implanted commlinks?

True limited cash is a far more severe restriction than limited Essence.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well it depends on what you consider "stuff to buy".
Is a reflex recorder something to have? Move by wire? Cybereyes? Cyberears? Implanted commlinks?

True limited cash is a far more severe restriction than limited Essence.

Yes, Cash will be your problem long before you really need to worry about Essence.

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, if I am (chargen) not allowed to buy anything above alpha....
The point is, if you do not need to worry about essence you will buy different stuff.
Muscle replacement 2, wired reflexes 2 will put you at 5 points of essence... Get bone lancing and cyberarmor and you are already above the essence cap without even spending more than 100k.

True as soon as you go delta++, Essence starts to be a minor concern.
(But the time a mage reaches magic 12 ware is for him also just a minor concern...)

Those powerlevels are a bit beyond the scope of the rules.
If you got several millions in cash and a few thousand points of Karma...

[Yerameyahu]

It's true that you might buy different things, especially at first. I'm not sure that's an argument against anyone else, though? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

Just saying that essence is a limitation. Of course it is a limitation interacting with other limitations. If you break down the others, essence alone won't do much. But if you break them down there is also nothing left why a reflex recorder for every skill should not be taken.. (Or double digits of cyberguns...)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

If you remove Essence you have to either remove all 'capacity' stats for cyber replacements, or add 'capacity' to the natural body.

It doesn't make sense for the flesh to be able to take more augmentation than a cyberreplacement equivalent.

See, that's a actually good NEW point. Capacities need to be upped, or removed, with some sort of sensible limitations in place. Maybe slots are a way to go after all? also, the crummy additive availability rules must be killed, because it makes no sense that adding a cheap part suddenly ups the avail for the entire cyberlimb.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, if I am (chargen) not allowed to buy anything above alpha....
The point is, if you do not need to worry about essence you will buy different stuff.
Muscle replacement 2, wired reflexes 2 will put you at 5 points of essence... Get bone lancing and cyberarmor and you are already above the essence cap without even spending more than 100k.

True as soon as you go delta++, Essence starts to be a minor concern.
(But the time a mage reaches magic 12 ware is for him also just a minor concern...)

Those powerlevels are a bit beyond the scope of the rules.
If you got several millions in cash and a few thousand points of Karma...

The cheap wares can really go along way without essence concerns. I'm really thinking the availabilities are too high on the higher rating ware, though, considering that it's still so cheap.
Off the top of my head, I would want muscle replacement 3 at avail 12, and MBWIII at Avail 20.


To summarize my thoughts so far:

- Magic loss must stay. Which means the essence cost of items can stay in teh game as a magic-loss cost.

- A different capacity stat might be needed that focuses more on space and size than on an abstract holistic idea. That could be seamlessly extended to revised cyberlimbs

- Higher grades can then still make things smaller, OR make things actually better

Rant ahead:

I still do have problems with the higher grade ware. For instance, I've NEVER personally seen it in a game that someone replaced a piece of ware with a higher grade piece. In fact, I've hardly ever see anything above alphaware, with the occasional betaware parts thrown in via GM-goodies at chargen! In the game, I've never witnessed anyone ever buying an expensive piece of higher grade ware. Ok, a lot of this stems from sR3, where you average starting sam had 0.1 essence left. In fact, the advancement via buying expensive cyber might as well be a myth, to me: People by expensive weapons, expensive ammo, and generally spent more via cash-for karma to improve skills and the like. The trouble is this: to improve in a field of specialty requires a LOT of investment, and many many characters may not ever really want to invest that much to just get one die more. If a char started by spending 250k on ware, then to improve in a relevant field he might have to spend as much as double that amount in order to replace several parts with higher grade ware in order to fit in that one improved piece that gives him what? One more die. The only time I've ever seen a character with that much cash was directly before retirement. Now the karma track is somewhat different: Costs might increase, but not nearly that badly. Karma cost increase is on a scale, whereas ware improvement cost is hugely incremental, and not systematic in the least.

For instance, the classic speed-sam (in sR4), simply cannot go beyond his maximum dice. Even if he did not get max dice at chargen, getting there would cost him hugely. The 11 agility 6 skill +whatever bonuses are just the end of the line. And unless he invested in even getting to 11 at chargen he will still NEVER get there. At least, the most likely increase to get him higher is actually a karma cost again: Letting him buy aptitude.


Diversion ahead

So, to take above thoughts and make for a far simpler solution to the essence problem and the hard-caps mundanes face, how about this: Keep essence, but simply let mundanes initiate, too. Give them point of real essence each time they do. Make it just a bit cheaper than magical initiation. OR give it an added benefit: For each grade they may raise one skill over 6. They can assign to a skill each time they initiate, or always assign the same skill. For simplicities sake you might also just put the entire skillcap at 6+initiations, because raising those skills will be expensive enough.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, my cybergun example was about the 'body capacity' point, while reflex recorders are a little different. Presumably, there's a limited number of places you can install extra nerve clusters? So, even if you remove Essence, there should still be limits on total 'size capacity' (previously handled by Essence) *and* perhaps per-item limitations for specific mods? That's a good point.

That's interesting, Brainpiercing. Is there an in-world justification, or is it purely balance (just abstract 'leveling-up')?

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Well, my cybergun example was about the 'body capacity' point, while reflex recorders are a little different. Presumably, there's a limited number of places you can install extra nerve clusters? So, even if you remove Essence, there should still be limits on total 'size capacity' (previously handled by Essence) *and* perhaps per-item limitations for specific mods? That's a good point.

That's interesting, Brainpiercing. Is there an in-world justification, or is it purely balance (just abstract 'leveling-up')?

Alright I realize that this takes things away from the level-less system, but... look at it this way:

Magic could also make do without initiation, one could simply say that magic costs a lot more to raise. 7x attribute, for instance. And you can get metamagic when you raise it above 6, however, the game has always had this tiered approach with initiations.

Mundane initiation doesn't have much of a non-mechanical explanation, yet, but... maybe you could gain humanity or something? There is also no reason to keep mages and technos from doing mundane initiations, either, if they want to raise skills above 6, for instance. They probably won't do it, much, but...

So... how about this for a house rule:

Humanity Growth

Sometimes people just become larger than life. At that moment what seemed like a normal human being just moments ago suddenly becomes superhuman - maybe in excellence, maybe in benevolence, or maybe even in depravity. When metahumans reach this degree of distinction, they grow above their human limitations. In order to grow in this manner a character must have undertaken a great task. (A campaign of runs will do, but other tasks also count: Fulfilling a great altruistic goal, conquering a territory, slaying a dragon, etc.) The rewarded karma may then be used to increase her very human core:
By meditating and reflecting on whatever makes her tick for 48 non-consecutive hours, the character can increase her Essence score by one point. In addition, this process raises her skill limits to 6 + her Humanity score. (Starting characters have a raised Humanity score of 0.)
Growing in Humanity costs 10 karma + 3x the increased Humanity score. When several people undertake the growth meditation as a group, there is a 5% discount per participant, with a maximum number of 5 participants.
Special: Only metahumans can grow in Humanity. Metahumans with Essence related powers cannot grow in humanity.

---


What about the numbers? Do you think this could fit?

[nezumi]

I like the Humanity growth mechanic (with some tweaking -- limiting group size to 5 will always hurt in a party of 6 PCs).

Regarding cyberware grades -- Yeah definitely, that's an issue. As a GM, I've offered ware as payment at steep discounts, but no one wants to trust a Johnson to install it so it STILL doesn't work. I was hoping SR4 would fix that, since it brought ware prices down so much, but I guess not. I would consider dropping the current price ladder and instead replace it with:
Used -- -30% cost
Standard -- no change
Alpha -- +20% cost
Beta -- +50% cost
Delta -- +100% cost.

Each level requires a contact able to install it as well. I still wouldn't expect to see much ware installed, but at least you have space to upgrade if you want.

[Irion]

@nezumi
Which would beg the question why ever getting something short of alpha or even delta.

@Brainpiercing7.62mm
A nice idea, I only see several problems:
Cost reduction depending on group size. Well that sucks hard. First of all there is no reason, second of all it just creates tension where non is needed. (We need one more!)

Well, the price is extremly cheap considering what it costs to get similar benefits.
To raise the skilllimit by one cost 15BP or 30 Karma if I am not misstaken. For one skill alone.
One point of essence is at least worth one point of adept powers (mostly up to 2). And they cost you (if you have already 5) 30 Points of Karma each. (Yes with the optional rule you get one additional point per initiation, but you are still only able to use "magic points" at the same time.

Theird of all you have to see how to handle Magic loss with this quality.
Does somebody reducing his essence from 7 to 6 lose a point of magic?
(I am not saying it would be bad for mages to get ware like that, because now every mage has to pay the same price for ware. Better than the "original" rules it is for sure. Still quite powerfull)

A other problem would be, that the skill limits would skyrocket. At least up to 9 or even 10.
This again ain't a bad thing afterall, I think they are too low to begin with.

Now, to the things I would change:
I would make it a more game mechanic mechanism.
Second of all, I would not throw to much at the players, they actually do not need.

So if I leave the cost like that I would make it 0.5 Essenz(But I am not sure about that) and raising the natural maximum of Grade*2 skills. Can be applied several times for one skill, up to Grade times.

One point of essance may mean +5 agility, +5 strength +1 body and +1 reaction.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

@nezumi
Which would beg the question why ever getting something short of alpha or even delta.

@Brainpiercing7.62mm
A nice idea, I only see several problems:
Cost reduction depending on group size. Well that sucks hard. First of all there is no reason, second of all it just creates tension where non is needed. (We need one more!)

Well, the price is extremly cheap considering what it costs to get similar benefits.
To raise the skilllimit by one cost 15BP or 30 Karma if I am not misstaken. For one skill alone.
One point of essence is at least worth one point of adept powers (mostly up to 2). And they cost you (if you have already 5) 30 Points of Karma each. (Yes with the optional rule you get one additional point per initiation, but you are still only able to use "magic points" at the same time.

Theird of all you have to see how to handle Magic loss with this quality.
Does somebody reducing his essence from 7 to 6 lose a point of magic?
(I am not saying it would be bad for mages to get ware like that, because now every mage has to pay the same price for ware. Better than the "original" rules it is for sure. Still quite powerfull)

A other problem would be, that the skill limits would skyrocket. At least up to 9 or even 10.
This again ain't a bad thing afterall, I think they are too low to begin with.

Now, to the things I would change:
I would make it a more game mechanic mechanism.
Second of all, I would not throw to much at the players, they actually do not need.

So if I leave the cost like that I would make it 0.5 Essenz(But I am not sure about that) and raising the natural maximum of Grade*2 skills. Can be applied several times for one skill, up to Grade times.

One point of essance may mean +5 agility, +5 strength +1 body and +1 reaction.

Alright, the numbers are probably off. Perhaps it should just cost exactly as much as initiating, and you should have to buy your essence up again as a stat. How about that?

My goal is also not to be comparable to aptitude: Aptitude can die a fiery death. My goal is to give mundanes something to do with their karma in their SPECIALTY field. Which is often enough maxed out at chargen, or only raisable with huge cost. So basically, I'm not concerned with the balance of being able to install a lot more ware - that is balanced by cash rewards at the table.

As far as interacting with magic loss is concerned I'm in favour of the least favourable interaction:
Essence loss ALWAYS incurs magic loss (because damaging the holistic unity of the body always damages magic, or something like that), even if you're dropping from 7 essence and have 6 magic (but your maximum magic remains 6). Magic can be bought back up to to a maximum of essence score or 6 after regaining essence via Humanity Growth. Magic cannot be raised above 6 without initiations.

Yes, that means doing things in a stupid order can destroy a whole lot of karma. I want to keep it in a way to not be too useful to mages - they don't need to be able to get a ton of ware as well. As is, with the way I've written things, a mage could install two points of ware at chargen, Grow twice, buy two points of essence as a stat and then raise magic to 6 before initiations. BUT that's really costly and will delay his progress a good deal.

[Yerameyahu]

I think people are specialized enough as it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The problem is that they start near the top, not that the top is too low. And if the problem with magic is that its max is beyond mundanes (god forbid), lower *their* max.

[Irion]

@Brainpiercing7.62mm

Yes, that means doing things in a stupid order can destroy a whole lot of karma.

Which is rulewise a VERY bad thing and should be corrected. Because with something like that, you open the floodgates for abuse of the system or make it unusable for any other kind of character.
It should not be like that.

It would be better to rewrite the hole essence loss paradigma than to make the same misstake here.
Because here it kind of really screws over the system.

BUT that's really costly and will delay his progress a good deal.

So he will just not do it. But the mundane face, would be unable to keep his essence score of 3 without paying a hell lot of karma. The fully cybered sam would be able to do it for less.


Magic, Essence and Ware
Essence loss works like Boni or mali from Spells or ware.
For every started point of essence your effective magic raiting is reduced by one. So a mage with two points of essence loss would have and a starting magic of 5 would have a magic of 5(3).
This means he would be treated as a magic 3 mage except for raising magic, until he regains his essence.
If he would like to increase his magic from 3 to 4, without raising his essance again, he would need to spent 30 Points of karma. If he wants to raise it further he needs either to gain an additional point of essence, regain one point of his used essence or initiate once.

1)This takes care of all the possible loopholes further ruling might open. There is no way a mage might be able to ignore or lowball the price for essance loss/cyberware on his magic. And a sweet side effect you may now use essance draining creature on him, without screwing with his character too much.
2)An other possibility is to use a "ware index", calculated the same way essence loss from where is calculated. But ware does not decrease your essence, you are limited to "max ware index"= current essance. The drawbacks this "ware index" has on magic would be open to discussion

Mundane Initiation
To use mundane Initiation you must be a meta race. Critters might use it with the GM approval. It is howerver not usable by Free Spirits, AIs or Infected

Costs: 10+3xgrade.
Effects: For every grade you are able to raise your natural essence score. Your maximum essence is raised as is your current essance. The cost are "new maximum essance" x5 (or x3).
For every grade you are able to pick one special ability:

For all abilities round up.
Mastery of Skill: This allows you to raise one selected skill further with karma. Up to a new natural maximum of 6+Grade. May be picked more than once for other skills.
Mastery of Attribute: This allows you to raise the natural maximum of an attribute by Grade/4. (May be picked more than once for other attributes)
Updated healing: You are one with your augmentations. For all healing tests you may add Grade/5 to your essance score up to your max essance.(Thinking about just allowing max essance or give Grade/2...
Strong Will: Whenever you resist a spell with only willpower, you may roll every dice which did not score a hit once.
Resistance of Steel: For every two points (one point) of essance loss due to Cyberware you gain one additional dice to resist any kind of mana-based spell.
Natural augmentation: Cultured bioware and basic bioware grade alpa or higher can regenerate as it would belong to your body. This means for example your bioware is healed automatically by augmented healing, spells or the regeneration power. In addition it makes those Implants harder to detect. Increase the threshold for scanners or Assencing by one.


I am a bit at war with myself if I should base every ability on your lost essance. But this would make this "advancement" a bit too worse for lightly cybered. And those need it really bad...
Having ideas for many more, but need feedback first. Too good, to bad, more based on lost essance, more on kept essance and so on

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe, now it's *really* like D&D levels, right down to 'choose your feat'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

Actually it works exactly like Initiations...

[Yerameyahu]

So? Like I just said, initiations are the problem.

[Irion]

True, this would be the other way around. Get rid of initiations and mundane and magic users see eye to eye again...

(The question would be, if you should get rid of BC, too. Reduce magic to corebook minus initiations...)